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Post by JerryvonKramer on Jun 6, 2009 5:55:50 GMT -5
... to its success?
This is something that occurred to me last night. A lot of people give Vince huge credit, but did he have "natural" advantages over the other territories?
1. Geography. NY is a compact state with millions of people in it and one of the world's premier cities. Unlike, say, Texas which is HUGE and disparate, the (W)WWF had its audience captive, all in one place.
2. The fact that no other major US city is a "wrestling city". I'm talking LA, Chicago, Detroit. Historically, wrestling was never in those places, so Vince had the advantage of being the only promotion located near one of the US's "top 5 cities".
What do you think?
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Post by T Vang is a HO-DADDY~! on Jun 6, 2009 11:14:50 GMT -5
Texas is huge but that fact was negated by Southwest Airlines, which would fly the wrestlers around on short flights for relatively low cost.
I think having New York as a stronghold helped when gaining national tv rights yes because saying they consistently sold out MSG is a pretty nice thing to say.
Also, I think you're greatly discounting the wrestling in those other major cities. Up until the mid-70s LA was one of the top two or three wrestling areas in the country, selling out the Olympic (13,000) every other week. Chicago was one also huge, being a stronghold in the AWA. It is fair to say that currently these cities aren't huge on the wrestling scene, but to say that historically wrestling was never in those places is mistaken.
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Post by Chainsaw on Jun 6, 2009 11:23:03 GMT -5
I think having nationally televised shows from MSG definitely helped. If you look at the two companies that made it big, WCW and WWF, they both had regular cable outlets to get their shows out there, WCW more than WWF with the Superstation. Which meant that they got more nationwide exposure than the more local territories.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jun 6, 2009 16:42:57 GMT -5
Being able to book the Garden in general helped. The average american probably doesn't know anything about wrestling, but they do know about MSG. If you tell a non-fan that WWF sold out MSG it means something, tell them Crockett sold out the Greensboro Colusium it means much less.
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Jun 6, 2009 17:27:38 GMT -5
When your primary locales for you show is New York City, Boston, Philadelphia, Long Island, Meadowlands in NJ and Toronto you probably have a leg up.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jun 6, 2009 18:23:23 GMT -5
Well Toronto was a NWA town until 1984 when the Tunney's decided to work with Vince but post-1984 the fact is that WWF could book every major city north of the mason dixon line, including anglo-Canada
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 6, 2009 18:32:46 GMT -5
Don't forget; with all those major cities along the Atlantic coast, you've also got greatly reduced travel expenses, another major benefit of being based in NYC.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jun 6, 2009 18:41:25 GMT -5
For sure. You're talking about 3 of the top 20 populations centers in the country (New York,Philadelphia and Boston) no more than a hop, skip and jump away. Never mind the mid size to larger markets around those places (Hartford, Providence, Long Island) that each had there own 15,000+ venues to book. The fact that they could book several venues in different cites large enough to have enough fresh fans in the seats to keep them excited with seeing the same house match night after night was huge. Add in that they could travel from city to city for little expence and your talking more money going into expansion and national promotion of your product vis a vie cable. Other promoter didn't have that advantage.
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Post by JerryvonKramer on Jun 6, 2009 18:43:43 GMT -5
Also, I think you're greatly discounting the wrestling in those other major cities. Up until the mid-70s LA was one of the top two or three wrestling areas in the country, selling out the Olympic (13,000) every other week. Chicago was one also huge, being a stronghold in the AWA. It is fair to say that currently these cities aren't huge on the wrestling scene, but to say that historically wrestling was never in those places is mistaken. What promotion ran out of LA? And Chicago might have come in the AWA's territory, but that was based in Minnesota right? That's a far old way from Chicago. Verne Gagne's office was in Minneapolis right? Vince's is in New York. There's a hell of a different between being able to book a stadium in a city and having your office based there. |
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jun 6, 2009 19:04:48 GMT -5
Minnapolis/St.Paul isn't that far from Chicago. It's about a (and i'm gestamating here) 8-10 hour drive. So it's not like were talking Miami and Seattle. Also no one clamed Chicago was the home venue of a major wrestling city. The second point in your first post was that Chicago and LA were not wrestling cities and that NY was. Not that NY was the only major city with a major promotion run out of it. That is true, but saying they weren't wresting cities is not. The NWA title match where Buddy Rodgers defeated Pat O'Connor was part of sold out show at Chicago's Commisky Park. So there was plenty of wrestling there.
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Post by JerryvonKramer on Jun 6, 2009 19:24:56 GMT -5
isn't that far ... 8-10 hour drive.  Remember that when you're talking to a Brit, that's AGES away. ;D Like I'm in London now, a 10 hour drive is SCOTLAND. There's a world of difference between London and Scotland. I guess in the overall scheme of US Geography it's not that far though. Although I still think that 10 hour drive to Chicago means that you can't say that Verne Gagne was based "in Chicago", not in the same way the McMahons are based in NY. |
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jun 6, 2009 19:43:39 GMT -5
I think we make a mistake, a mistake that the genuis of Vince McMahon has lead us to make, in saying that NYC is a "wrestling city". Memphis was a wrestling city, Calgary was a wrestling city, Dallas was a wrestling city. New York, like Chicago is a baseball city with other popular team sports behind that and wrestling a distant finisher. Yeah (W)WWF(E) can sell out the 20,000+ MSG every show. But with the largest metro area in the country that isn't that hard to do. The wrestling cities were/are wrestling cities because that was all there was to do. NYC, Chicago and LA are spots and popular entertainment towns were wrestling is one of many,many things to do.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 6, 2009 21:20:25 GMT -5
I think we make a mistake, a mistake that the genuis of Vince McMahon has lead us to make, in saying that NYC is a "wrestling city". Memphis was a wrestling city, Calgary was a wrestling city, Dallas was a wrestling city. New York, like Chicago is a baseball city with other popular team sports behind that and wrestling a distant finisher. Yeah (W)WWF(E) can sell out the 20,000+ MSG every show. But with the largest metro area in the country that isn't that hard to do. The wrestling cities were/are wrestling cities because that was all there was to do. NYC, Chicago and LA are spots and popular entertainment towns were wrestling is one of many,many things to do. I can certainly vouch for that. A big factor with NYC is part of what I was saying before; as the Atlantic population bases are so densely packed together, you get a lot of fans from around the NY area making the trek to the city for shows. It's like a convergence point for Boston, Philly, Jersey, Long Island, and obviously native NYC fans, et. al. New York, first and foremost, is a baseball city, and a "four major sports league" city all-around. Wrestling isn't anywhere near the forefront, but the fans who do go out for shows tend to be loud and often smart, again, because many smart fans from all around the Northeast have an easy ride into NYC, be it by bus, train, or an easy car ride. |
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Jun 6, 2009 23:03:53 GMT -5
Also, I think you're greatly discounting the wrestling in those other major cities. Up until the mid-70s LA was one of the top two or three wrestling areas in the country, selling out the Olympic (13,000) every other week. Chicago was one also huge, being a stronghold in the AWA. It is fair to say that currently these cities aren't huge on the wrestling scene, but to say that historically wrestling was never in those places is mistaken. What promotion ran out of LA? And Chicago might have come in the AWA's territory, but that was based in Minnesota right? That's a far old way from Chicago. Verne Gagne's office was in Minneapolis right? Vince's is in New York. There's a hell of a different between being able to book a stadium in a city and having your office based there. Vince's office is NOT in New York. |
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Post by default on Jun 7, 2009 2:01:09 GMT -5
It definitely helped. Most territories were relying a lot more on towns than cities. The McMahons had access to probably the biggest population while still being relatively compact in location.
But at the end of the day, the biggest and best territory would sink if it wasn't able to keep fresh talent that fans could relate to, have good angles and feuds, etc. Vince was very smart at the time when it came to finding guys like Sammartino and Morales that fans could and would relate to on a consistent basis.
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Post by JerryvonKramer on Jun 7, 2009 4:58:12 GMT -5
Vince's office is NOT in New York. No? Where is it then?  |
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Starlight Starbright
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Post by Starlight Starbright on Jun 7, 2009 8:23:06 GMT -5
^^I know it's in Stamford, Connecticut, now (and if you think Chicago and Minneapolis are far apart, lol) but back then I forget where it was. ... to its success? This is something that occurred to me last night. A lot of people give Vince huge credit, but did he have "natural" advantages over the other territories? 1. Geography. NY is a compact state with millions of people in it and one of the world's premier cities. Unlike, say, Texas which is HUGE and disparate, the (W)WWF had its audience captive, all in one place. 2. The fact that no other major US city is a "wrestling city". I'm talking LA, Chicago, Detroit. Historically, wrestling was never in those places, so Vince had the advantage of being the only promotion located near one of the US's "top 5 cities". What do you think? Texas isn't exactly disparate. Back then it wasn't as densely populated as it is now but still you had some pretty up and coming cities all close together. When you talk about wrestling cities- New York is not a wrestling city- Memphis, Tulsa etc., were wrestling cities where wrestling was the sell out event. I think that's a cultural thing, too between north and south. The LeBelle's and other promotions over lapped in LA during the territory days and the west coast was the first stop before getting into Mid Atlantic if you were coming down from Canada. Pat Patterson, Roddy Piper, Rick Martel all ended up working Cali before heading east and I know Peter Maivia was over big in LA since that's where he was based during the late 60s and early 70s. That's where his lengthy feud with Patterson took place. Chicago was a big wrestling center back in the 70s and early 80s. AWA ran that. Of course the 60s were a great period, too. Randy Savage started out in Chicago- Chicago boasts a lot of legendary names. But yeah being in a more densely populated section of the US helped immensely but it's not like the rest of the country did not have wrestling- WWF was not the end all, be all and competition wasn't an issue except for where territories overlapped. Even the west cost and Texas near the border had wrestling. The geography- cultural and literal- of the US is basically apples and oranges between north/east and south/west. |
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Post by JerryvonKramer on Jun 7, 2009 8:30:35 GMT -5
So why did AWA run Chicago from Minneapolis? Why didn't they (Chicago) have a promotion of their own?
And why doesn't LA have a famous promotion attached to it? You know, like how Texas had WCCW, Oklahoma had Watt's Mid-South/ UWF, the Carolinas had Crockett, etc. etc.
I guess that's what I was getting at.
EDIT: by the way, Starlight and others have been VERY informative in this thread. So thanks for that. I'm an outsider looking into the US and trying to make sense of wrestling, y'know, so it's awesome to learn some of these things -- like NY not being a "wrestling city".
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Post by Starlight Starbright on Jun 7, 2009 8:42:50 GMT -5
So why did AWA run Chicago from Minneapolis? Why didn't they have a promotion of their own? And why doesn't LA have a famous promotion attached to it? You know, like how Texas had WCCW, Oklahoma had Watt's Mid-South/ UWF, the Carolinas had Crockett, etc. etc. I guess that's what I was getting at. EDIT: by the way, Starlight and others have been VERY informative in this thread. So thanks for that. I'm an outsider looking into the US and trying to make sense of wrestling, y'know, so it's awesome to learn some of these things -- like NY not being a "wrestling city". I don't think states had their own promotions. It was a regional section run from cities in that region. AWA was based in Minneapolis but branched out north up into Canada, south as far as some parts of Illinois (I think), east (around W/WWF) and west as long as they weren't butting into other promotions. Ath one point I think they had a part of California. I know WCCW kept to a part of Texas were they wouldn't over lap the other Texas territory. Since Texas was so big 3 territories had stakes in it. .. Watts stayed in Oklahoma, Missouri, Louisiana and parts of Arkansas/Kansas because no one else was running there. And wouldn't because fans around there were too rough and would fight in a hot minute and make Memphis crowds look tame, scary as that is. LA. ...I forget who was running LA but I think the territory system was a whole different thing all together when Maivia was running around. Closer to the late 70s I think whoever was running Oregon and Washington state had California. Where's that map of the territories? I know LA was LaBelle on the map. ETA .. ..   Correction- there were 4 territories in Texas. www.midatlanticgateway.com/Resource_Center/potpourri/territories/territories.htm |
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Starlight Starbright
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Post by Starlight Starbright on Jun 7, 2009 8:49:05 GMT -5
It's tough to grasp in an era where WWF wrote the history book but the lesser known promotions running out of LA and every where else were names back when they were around; they just haven't been cemented as such in the history books because they didn't win the wars and got wiped out but I'm sure that a lot of names passed through them before they became names.
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