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Post by Timmy8271 on Dec 27, 2007 21:27:55 GMT -5
I just don't get why people read his stuff if they know he's going to be negative. Of course he's a douchebag. That's what people pay for when they subscribe to his newsletter and listen to his shows. He's catering to an audience that hates TNA's bullcrap in there opinion. It's the same with those Youtube "shooters" and some people on here that bitch about WWE's bullcrap. I just choose not to listen to them. Why? Because I don't want a headache.
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Post by I'm The Cool One on Dec 27, 2007 23:12:29 GMT -5
Not that it matters, I suppose, but you really are coming across as a bit of a snob here. Maybe something is just getting lost in the translation... Well to me, it feels like others are being snobs. We had a guy come out and say exactly how the "TNA sucks/No it doesn't" debate looks to him, and I responded with how it looks to me. That's it. Someone gave their view of the typical TNA thread then I responded with mine. And I held back a lot. If I had it to type over again, I would have had the TNA basher say, "Well WWE makes money, case closed!" a few hundred times. You start out your post by saying "As far as the debate over Alvarez's latest TNA rant is concerned, the guy's not wrong." I never said he was. Mostly because I refuse to read another word the guy writes after the embarassing error laden, hate-filled rants he's wasted our time with in the past. I came in to on page five to respond to something someone else wrote. the thing is, though. i can link you to an entire thread that is damn near word for word what i posted earlier. i posted that i am a TNA fan and that i wish they would get their program together and start producing the TV that they are capable of producing... and people told me that i hated TNA and that i was just being negative. i tried to give ways of making the product better, and people accused me of just hating the comedy in TNA. heres the deal. I love TNA. I've watched TNA since the days when they were only on PPV. I watched every episode when it was on FOX Sprots Net. And I catch as many episodes as I can now that they're on Spike. And when you compare the product from early on to the product now, it's just not as good. they have all the potential in the world... Yet they squander it away with badly produced TV shows. I'm not complainging about the comedy in TNA, and I'm not complaining about the storylines in TNA. The show is just a horrendously produced program. They say "We are wrestling" and then they try to be as much like the WWE as possible. They have their moments, and when they do, they knock my socks off. But when they aren't having "moments" it is painfull for me to watch.There... Now that there can't possibly be any confusion... Every TNA discussion starts, ends, and progresses the same way. Someone offers criticism, a TNA fan tells that person taht they're wrong, that person explains why they feel the way they do, and the TNA fan finds a way to make the other person out to be "TEH SUXXORZ"... You also throw in the manditory nut job who is just out to beat on TNA because people like it... And you throw in the nut job who is nothing more than a gimmick poster (like we've seen in this thread.... TNA 4 Life and 4 Ever or whatever that guy said) who is going to love TNA no matter what... And you've got yourself a TNA thread at The 'Crap... It's nothing new... Can't we just have an all purpose TNA discussion thread, that way I can go into other threads involving TNA without reading through 5-7 pages of people arguing the same f***ing points that have been argued every week since TNA moved to Spike? The whole point is this.... THIS CONVERSATION HAS BEEN HAD MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES. IT'S NEVER NEW OR DIFFERENT... BOTH SIDES ARGUE THE SAME POINTS... AND WE ALL BECOME DUMBER FOR READING IT...
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Post by Cibernético II on Dec 28, 2007 3:36:05 GMT -5
I absolutely loathe Bryan Alvarez, but I agree with this article.
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Post by thestinger on Dec 28, 2007 9:34:02 GMT -5
I agree with 98% of what you say. The only place where my opinion differs is HOW "Every TNA discussion starts, ends, and progresses the same way."
In my experience it starts with someone leveling a criticism at least 50% of which are factually incorrect, and Bryan Alvarez has been the perfect example. In the past even the mods have said there is no excuse for someone supposedly 'in the business' to get so much wrong.
Anyway, once the 'TNA sucks, no it doesn't' thing gets rolling it doesn't stop until some TNA fan makes the critical error of saying, "Well at least it's better than WWE!" Then all hell breaks loose, add five more pages, I'll probably add, "TNA is much better, it's not even close."
Then the next five pages are people bashing me, until everyone says they are sick of discussing WWE and blame me for bringing it up even though I didn't, and never would.
I wish we could stick the facts and only talk about TNA. But if someone comes on here and says, "Samoa Joe is being buried, he's a jobber now" right after he's main evented three ppvs in a row winning two (this happened) I'm going to say something.
I have never once labeled anyeone 'anti-TNA' for criticizing the program. Quite the opposite, I've had multiple people tell me I must hate Vince or be pissed off at him because I don't watch Vince's show.
Yeah, I wish every thread about TNA didn't follow the same path, mostly because I get trashed on every page for having a good answer to most complaints and for not liking WWE.
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Post by laotioncommotion on Dec 28, 2007 10:03:59 GMT -5
I agree with 98% of what you say. The only place where my opinion differs is HOW "Every TNA discussion starts, ends, and progresses the same way." In my experience it starts with someone leveling a criticism at least 50% of which are factually incorrect, and Bryan Alvarez has been the perfect example. In the past even the mods have said there is no excuse for someone supposedly 'in the business' to get so much wrong. Anyway, once the 'TNA sucks, no it doesn't' thing gets rolling it doesn't stop until some TNA fan makes the critical error of saying, "Well at least it's better than WWE!" Then all hell breaks loose, add five more pages, I'll probably add, "TNA is much better, it's not even close." Then the next five pages are people bashing me, until everyone says they are sick of discussing WWE and blame me for bringing it up even though I didn't, and never would. I wish we could stick the facts and only talk about TNA. But if someone comes on here and says, "Samoa Joe is being buried, he's a jobber now" right after he's main evented three ppvs in a row winning two (this happened) I'm going to say something. I have never once labeled anyeone 'anti-TNA' for criticizing the program. Quite the opposite, I've had multiple people tell me I must hate Vince or be pissed off at him because I don't watch Vince's show. Yeah, I wish every thread about TNA didn't follow the same path, mostly because I get trashed on every page for having a good answer to most complaints and for not liking WWE. This is pretty much what I generally see. Look at this thread. You provided a rebuttal to somebody who was obviously looking to knock TNA fans, and got called a snob and an elitist for it. But I'm with you, partner. How can AJ Styles be getting buried when he's the tag champ and involved in the main storyline in the show? What is so damn confusing about the Reverse Battle Royal? Or anything else people want to label "confusing" about TNA? That's the thing about wrestling. It's all pretty simple to wrap your head around. I mean, have any of you guys tried watching Eraserhead? That's confusing. Alvarez, and a lot of other guys get things wrong about TNA all the time. I don't think it's unfair to question whether they watch the show or not. I say that I don't really like ROH, and people question whether or not I watch it every time I do. I don't know, maybe if these people EVER had anything at all nice to say about TNA, it'd change my opinion. I mean, people talk about how negative people are toward WWE, but read any dirt sheets or forums around Wrestlemania, and nobody has anything bad to say about it. There was that hour long Shawn Michaels/John Cena match that I'm convinced everybody loved so much simply by virtue of the fact that WWE booked an hour long match. The fact is, as much as people gripe about WWE, most of them have watched it for a long time and praise it for being good when it's prudent. TNA hasn't been around long enough to get the same kind of advantage. If WWE ran something as good as Bound For Glory 07, people would seriously shit themselves talking about "Attitude Era 2!" But it was TNA, so it got quickly swept under the rug in favor of "Samoa Joe is getting buried even though he is a permanent fixture in the main event! WWE rejects dominate the show, even though Black Reign, Rhino, Team 3D and VKM are about as far from the main event as possible and Booker, Christian and Angle left because they wanted to. Too many face/heel turns! Boo matches with stipulations! Vince Russo is an idiot!"
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Post by hollywood on Dec 28, 2007 10:12:09 GMT -5
So um, lol @ TNA threads?
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Post by thestinger on Dec 28, 2007 10:20:11 GMT -5
So um, lol @ TNA threads? You. Don't you think I realize you're always the one stoking the flames. I'm on to you, mirror doppelganger! Every time this scrotum, Alvarez rants on TNA I end up in a pages long bashfest. This time I didn't read a single word of what he wrote, and came in five pages late and it still happened!
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Post by hollywood on Dec 28, 2007 10:22:40 GMT -5
So um, lol @ TNA threads? You. Don't you think I realize you're always the one stoking the flames. I'm on to you, mirror doppelganger! Every time this scrotum, Alvarez rants on TNA I end up in a pages long bashfest. This time I didn't read a single word of what he wrote, and came in five pages late and it still happened! Hey now. I'm hurt. I'd like to think that, even on the occasions when I really get mad and start really crapping on them, I still present my criticisms--both founded and unfounded--in a tasteful and amusing manner. And, you know, this is off topic, but they REALLY should've hired me.
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Post by thestinger on Dec 28, 2007 10:28:13 GMT -5
I'd like to think that, even on the occasions when I really get mad and start really crapping on them, I still present my criticisms--both founded and unfounded--in a tasteful and amusing manner. This is true. Even when you say something about TNA that is wrong and a bunch of folks jump all over you, you can say, "Ok, Ok, I admit I haven't watched much lately, that's the way it seemed from the recap I read." Alvarez on two separate occasions ranted on storys leaving out important segments making it painfully clear he doesn't watch the show. So you're better than a guy who bashes TNA for a living (although you say this time, the guy is on the money).
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Post by hollywood on Dec 28, 2007 10:39:51 GMT -5
So you're better than a guy who bashes TNA for a living (although you say this time, the guy is on the money). While guys like Lewis Black would look at that rant and probably say, "Jesus, man, calm down!" I do think Alvarez is right here. The script gives the impression that TNA's creative team micromanages the entire show, with detailed in-ring conversations for every segment. A now-famous (or imfamous) on-screen flub with West and Tenay reading their scripts on camera only furthers that. Pro wrestling is very much like an improv show. The best moments in wrestling have almost always (if not ALWAYS) been between two stars who knew how to play a crowd on the fly--like every Mankind/Rock exchange, any McMahon/Austin encounter or the awesome nWo promos. I'll venture that none of those were as scripted out as this script suggests TNA is. While Alvarez should really calm down and probably take a double dose of valium, he's not wrong on this one. Of course, if TNA hired me, he might not be so mad. Think about it, I'm not employed by them, and Alvarez hates them. I'm not saying the two are related, but it is food for thought.
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Post by Chainsaw on Dec 28, 2007 10:45:07 GMT -5
SAVEUS_H2O Ron Waterman's coming back?
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Post by thestinger on Dec 28, 2007 10:48:36 GMT -5
If TNA does hire you, it won't be to make this douche happy.
I doubt anyone in Orlando is losing sleep over what this guy thinks.
That said, everything you said in your post I said myself when the script first leaked.
I also theorized that it was a 'change in policy' since the current booking team took over because I recall both Christian and Rhino saying that TNA gave them far more freedom to say what they wanted with Rhino going so far as to say, "Nobody hands me a script here, they hand me a mike and tell me say what you want."
That was back in 06 of course.
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Post by hollywood on Dec 28, 2007 10:55:59 GMT -5
If TNA does hire you, it won't be to make this douche happy. Maybe not, but who knows? He might end his rants with something like, "Yea TNA is definitely in the crapper right now, but at least they gave that kid from Kentucky a shot on the camera work!" I, personally, think they'd do well to pay attention to Lance Storm's criticisms. But that's just me... Judging by the name all over the script, I'd venture a guess that the "change in policy" was likely the hiring of Vince Russo...or at least bagan with that, anyway.
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Post by thestinger on Dec 28, 2007 11:14:02 GMT -5
I, personally, think they'd do well to pay attention to Lance Storm's criticisms. But that's just me.... Lance is harder to pin down. In the beginning I thought his comments on TNA were a little harsh, but mostly fair. At some point though, he began to sound just like Alvarez. Granted Lance was one of the best workers of the past 15 years and Bryan was not... Lance's comments are so filled with bile I've actually begun to wonder if maybe Lance and Jarrett didn't get along in WCW or something. There has to be bad blood or a story someplace, because I can't believe Lance can find TNA so infuriating, and yet still watch every week. He stopped being constructive at some point, and more importantly, stopped even pointing out or mentioning the positive. He talks only about the negative, even if that was on segment out of the show he's reviewing or the stipulation of one match on a pay per view.
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Post by hollywood on Dec 28, 2007 11:59:58 GMT -5
I, personally, think they'd do well to pay attention to Lance Storm's criticisms. But that's just me.... Lance is harder to pin down. In the beginning I thought his comments on TNA were a little harsh, but mostly fair. At some point though, he began to sound just like Alvarez. Granted Lance was one of the best workers of the past 15 years and Bryan was not... Lance's comments are so filled with bile I've actually begun to wonder if maybe Lance and Jarrett didn't get along in WCW or something. There has to be bad blood or a story someplace, because I can't believe Lance can find TNA so infuriating, and yet still watch every week. He stopped being constructive at some point, and more importantly, stopped even pointing out or mentioning the positive. He talks only about the negative, even if that was on segment out of the show he's reviewing or the stipulation of one match on a pay per view. I think Lance's thing is he desperately wants them to succeed, and he's convinced that if they continue down the path they're on, they won't. I think that's where his frustration that often borders on fury comes from. Lance is altogether different than Alvarez, because where Alvaraz probably hasn't watched in a year, Lance tunes in sporadically and comments on that one show. As a result, he hasn't kept up with what's going on, and many things probably seem pretty absurd without knowing the backstory. Also, unlike Alzarez, Lance normally says exactly WHY he thinks what TNA's doing is stupid. I remember he once ranted on TNA's bad promos, and he followed that up with a detailed description of exactly what a promo is supposed to accomplish. He's also once even made a column saying, "Okay, I've b****ed and moaned, but if it were me, here's how I would do it." Someone once asked him what he thought TNA thinks of his comments. He answered that they probably either ignore him completely or just aren't aware. He said he hoped, if anything, his comments would make them mad and they'd try to shut him the hell up by putting out a good show. You once said that if TNA goes belly up, you'll just find something else non-wrestling to watch. I think Lance has a bit of an emotional investment in them, in that if they succeed, it will provide another lucrative opportunity for graduates of his training school--among other possible reasons.
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Post by thestinger on Dec 28, 2007 12:28:11 GMT -5
Lance must have SOME emotional investment in TNA. At one point he swore he wouldn't watch impact again as long as Vince Russo was employed by the company, and probably 90% of his impact reviews have been since then.
Lance is right sometimes and wrong others. In the column you reference he bashes two promos. One was a terrible one by Jr. Fatu, that rumor has it played a decent role in him not being hired by the company. The other one was by Team 3D in which Jabba Ray totally buried the Motor City Machineguns.
The Fatu promo was obviously horrible, and NEVER should have been allowed to air -- but in the end TNA made the right call and declined to offer the man a contract. Lance was right about this.
But the Team 3D promo served the storyline. It was an angle in which it was an important part of the storyline that there is no mutual respect between the two teams. It built heat for the match on PPV in which the MCMG dominated those fat slobs and Sabin pinned Jabba clean. Lance was wrong about this.
I do agree with you that Lance probably wants TNA to suceed and I get the feeling Alvarez simply hates the company and everything about it and would be happy to gloat if it goes belly-up.
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Post by hollywood on Dec 28, 2007 13:42:04 GMT -5
But the Team 3D promo served the storyline. It was an angle in which it was an important part of the storyline that there is no mutual respect between the two teams. It built heat for the match on PPV in which the MCMG dominated those fat slobs and Sabin pinned Jabba clean. Lance was wrong about this. See, I disagree. His point was that on that show, 3-D completely buried MCMG and the MCMG never got a chance to save face. 3-D just buried them verbally then destroyed them in the ring. And that was it. No hint that 3-D had to fight dirty to take them out. No hint that MCMG might've beaten them if 3-D hadn't gotten the upper hand or whatever. Sure, MCMG got back at them on the PPV, but why would I buy that PPV if MCMG just solidly had their asses handed to them? Granted, the MCMG/3-D feud wasn't the show's major selling point anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still poor booking.
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Post by Michael Coello on Dec 28, 2007 13:44:28 GMT -5
But the Team 3D promo served the storyline. It was an angle in which it was an important part of the storyline that there is no mutual respect between the two teams. It built heat for the match on PPV in which the MCMG dominated those fat slobs and Sabin pinned Jabba clean. Lance was wrong about this. See, I disagree. His point was that on that show, 3-D completely buried MCMG and the MCMG never got a chance to save face. 3-D just buried them verbally then destroyed them in the ring. And that was it. No hint that 3-D had to fight dirty to take them out. No hint that MCMG might've beaten them if 3-D hadn't gotten the upper hand or whatever. Sure, MCMG got back at them on the PPV, but why would I buy that PPV if MCMG just solidly had their asses handed to them? Granted, the MCMG/3-D feud wasn't the show's major selling point anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still poor booking. And the big "X-Division hate you too" promo from Shelley & Sabin? The one that had most of the X-Division kick Team 3D's ass? That was free, you know.
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Post by hollywood on Dec 28, 2007 13:48:36 GMT -5
See, I disagree. His point was that on that show, 3-D completely buried MCMG and the MCMG never got a chance to save face. 3-D just buried them verbally then destroyed them in the ring. And that was it. No hint that 3-D had to fight dirty to take them out. No hint that MCMG might've beaten them if 3-D hadn't gotten the upper hand or whatever. Sure, MCMG got back at them on the PPV, but why would I buy that PPV if MCMG just solidly had their asses handed to them? Granted, the MCMG/3-D feud wasn't the show's major selling point anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still poor booking. And the big "X-Division hate you too" promo from Shelley & Sabin? The one that had most of the X-Division kick Team 3D's ass? That was free, you know. I was referring to the one show Lance was discussing. In that one show, 3-D destroyed MCMG both verbally and physically. It's usually a good idea to leave some sort of possibility that the victims MIGHT have have a chance. This particular show, excluding others, didn't do that. That was Lance's point. And I was merely agreeing.
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Post by thestinger on Dec 28, 2007 13:50:20 GMT -5
Granted, the MCMG/3-D feud wasn't the show's major selling point anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still poor booking. I think that was an instance of good booking. The fact that Team 3D totally buried the MCMG and called the X-Division worthless, made their own defeat even more devastating. A perfect example of older (fatter) more established (I hate you, Jabba Ray) veterans putting over young talent and elevating them in the process. They storyline needed Sabin and Shelley to win clean to keep from damaging the X-Division's credibility and that's exactly what happened. Hell this was the first time I ever enjoyed a Team 3D match in my life. Because they spent most of it getting their butts kicked by two of my favorite wrestlers.
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