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Post by Hassan bin Sober on Dec 26, 2007 20:17:48 GMT -5
Another term I like to use is "theater".
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Post by A Dubya (El Hombre Muerto) on Dec 26, 2007 20:23:59 GMT -5
Another term I like to use is "theater". Me too. I have been known to call it "athletic theater".
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OriasPool
Samurai Cop
May the power protect you
Posts: 2,381
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Post by OriasPool on Dec 26, 2007 20:59:51 GMT -5
it's still real to me damnit!!!
_________________ I use scripted
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 27, 2007 0:50:18 GMT -5
I had a whole discussion about this with someone else who called it a fake competition. I HATE the word Fake. I rarely hate anything, but I hate that. It's sort of like saying that noone gets hurt and noone has had their lives drastically changed by it. I've always respected anyone who can go in front of 20,000 people and get beaten the hell out of just to entertain them. Because that's what they want to do. It's sort of like going up to an actor and saying 'That was fake about how you were sad about that other person who didn't die. I can't respect you because of that.' You'd get eaten alive. Yes, even if it was Natalie Portman. So yeah, Pre-Determined, Scripted anything. Just not 'fake'. Yeah, that was me. Frankly, I have a hard time grasping exactly what you're saying there. No one said they didn't respect them, and no one said it wasn't physical work. You can make up whatever definition for "fake" that you want, but it doesn't change the real definition of it. Your other analogy completely misses the point. It's not anything like trying to berate an actor for playing a role, nor was there any indication that people who say it's fake don't think it's tough, physical work. You completely jump from someone making an absolute factual statement, that actors are playing a role, and bastardize it into "omg, you don't respect them !!!!1" If you hate the word to because you think it doesn't give off the proper description of what goes on, fine, but blatantly making it mean something entirely different isn't going to sway anyone. No one is saying what you claim they are saying by saying the competition is fake. They're saying the competition is fake because they aren't really trying to win by the very nature of professional wrestling, nothing more. Does it completely capture it? No. Is it factually inaccurate to call it that, though? No.
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Reverend BTY
Hank Scorpio
Christian Troy: God's Gift
Posts: 7,206
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Post by Reverend BTY on Dec 27, 2007 1:11:30 GMT -5
Fake usually. Although I'm the type to correct people when they use the term. I'm kind of a dick in that sense.
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Post by TromboneMan on Dec 27, 2007 1:19:15 GMT -5
I once tricked my little brother into thinking that Boxing was the "fake" one of the two.
Good times.
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Post by Dick Foley on Dec 27, 2007 1:30:22 GMT -5
It's just easier to say fake. The punches and kicks and sleeper hold are fake and its just easier to say that.
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damna
Don Corleone
Sorry Anderson Silva, but Fedor is still number 1!
Posts: 1,819
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Post by damna on Dec 27, 2007 1:33:00 GMT -5
I once tricked my little brother into thinking that Boxing was the "fake" one of the two. Good times. These days.....that's really not that far off. back to the topic: I say scripted (really if you think about it, it's more similar to gymnastics then freestyle/greco-roman wrestling, the moves are planned, the question is can they be executed?) I say that as a former amateur wrestler and pro-wrestling fan.
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
Posts: 7,009
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Post by nate5054 on Dec 27, 2007 1:58:10 GMT -5
I find it very, very irritating to me when people refer to wrestling as "fake." I don't believe it to be "fake." I hate that term, primarily because these days WWE presents itself as a TV show, and nothing more, complete with supernatural hijinks and intentional-near-murder. People don't refer to "24" as fake. They don't complain that the poorly choreographed fights in "Heroes" look "fake." And yet, somehow Kiefer Sutherland manages not to break his freaking neck, or go home from work sore every time he hits the set. I've always used the term "staged," because I feel it captures the risk factor while acknowledging the fact that it's just a TV show. We've all probably had this conversation. What term do you use, and why? I always linked wrestling to ballet. Both are choreographed, yet both take a decent amount of athleticism/dexterity/power to pull off properly, with a few exceptions. Noobdy calls ballet fake. That being said, I always wished wrestling would actually follow some sort of said rules, totally kayfabe. Like I wish people were disqualified for closed fist punches or kicking people or whatever. So the heels would have to time it right to get away with it. I also wish wrestling kept actual standings, at least for televised events. It would give a look closer to actual sports, and wouldgive a guage on who should be getting a push or not.
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Post by Sumbody Gon' Get Dey Kneelift on Dec 27, 2007 2:15:22 GMT -5
Another term I like to use is "theater". Me too. I have been known to call it "athletic theater". It's a very direct evolution of Kabuki, really.
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Post by laotioncommotion on Dec 27, 2007 3:04:29 GMT -5
I say fake, because I think it's important to view wrestling with levity. My standard argument when people say they can't understand why people watch wrestling because "it's fake" is to say "Of course it's fake. That's what makes it better. There couldn't be chair shots and run-ins if it wasn't. Have you ever watched real wrestling? Completely f***ing boring". That's what I figure wrestling has to do. Throw people's inertia back at them, and embrace the advantages in being fake. It worked for the Attitude Era.
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Post by Dick Foley on Dec 27, 2007 3:08:12 GMT -5
She said Kabuki, hehehehehehehe!
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Post by Loki on Dec 27, 2007 8:05:17 GMT -5
The outcomes are pre-planned, the matchs are scripted, the competition is fake.
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Post by Nick Loves Dr. Pepper on Dec 27, 2007 10:52:25 GMT -5
You can't spell "kayfabe" without a f+a+k+e ,as Steve Colbert would analyze the word, and I believe he has mentioned the WWE sometime
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Post by eJm on Dec 27, 2007 12:37:32 GMT -5
I had a whole discussion about this with someone else who called it a fake competition. I HATE the word Fake. I rarely hate anything, but I hate that. It's sort of like saying that noone gets hurt and noone has had their lives drastically changed by it. I've always respected anyone who can go in front of 20,000 people and get beaten the hell out of just to entertain them. Because that's what they want to do. It's sort of like going up to an actor and saying 'That was fake about how you were sad about that other person who didn't die. I can't respect you because of that.' You'd get eaten alive. Yes, even if it was Natalie Portman. So yeah, Pre-Determined, Scripted anything. Just not 'fake'. Yeah, that was me. Frankly, I have a hard time grasping exactly what you're saying there. No one said they didn't respect them, and no one said it wasn't physical work. You can make up whatever definition for "fake" that you want, but it doesn't change the real definition of it. Your other analogy completely misses the point. It's not anything like trying to berate an actor for playing a role, nor was there any indication that people who say it's fake don't think it's tough, physical work. You completely jump from someone making an absolute factual statement, that actors are playing a role, and bastardize it into "omg, you don't respect them !!!!1" If you hate the word to because you think it doesn't give off the proper description of what goes on, fine, but blatantly making it mean something entirely different isn't going to sway anyone. No one is saying what you claim they are saying by saying the competition is fake. They're saying the competition is fake because they aren't really trying to win by the very nature of professional wrestling, nothing more. Does it completely capture it? No. Is it factually inaccurate to call it that, though? No. I was never making you see in any direction, I was simply giving you my view in a way that would best describe it. Maybe it wasn't authodox, but it was the best way I could say it. I just wish you could accept that I think differently from you because it just seems like you find it hard to.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 27, 2007 15:43:42 GMT -5
I was never making you see in any direction, I was simply giving you my view in a way that would best describe it. Maybe it wasn't authodox, but it was the best way I could say it. I just wish you could accept that I think differently from you because it just seems like you find it hard to. I have no problem accepting that you think differently, and don't think I have ever even implied it. If you want to think that it's some huge affront to use a word that accurately describes the nature of the contests, be my guest. However, I do have a problem when you claim I'm saying a whole bunch of things that I've never said nor gotten anywhere close to implying, which is exactly what your "analogy" shows. You're getting pissy not because of anything anyone has said, but because of something you've essentially made up to get pissy about.
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Post by Loki on Dec 27, 2007 16:22:54 GMT -5
The whole debate about wrestling not being "fake" relies on the ambiguous nature of the business itself and on the way it's still portrayed on TV.
Even though they admitted wrestling being scripted (and I'd really like to have someone pinpointing the WWF show where that actually happened), the whole "wrestling/sports entertainment" quarrell, and a progressive destruction of the fourth wall, the in-ring, on-air match is STILL presented as "real" even if it's only for the duration of the programs.
The day WWE will say "John Cena is our new champion because he's the most loved/marketable guy we have" and the outcomes of the matches will somehow be not linked to superior skills, the analogy with ballet-acting will fit a bit more.
But as long as they speak of Unstoppable Monsters, Ultimate Opportunists and True Champions, the "fake" work still applies.
It's not a lack of respect. It's a statement about the nature of the competition WWE and other organizations are promoting.
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Post by WWE Trademarked My Name on Dec 27, 2007 16:37:10 GMT -5
I call it a tv show. It has a bunch of stories crammed into 2 hours with alot of action.
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Post by thesunbeast on Dec 27, 2007 18:14:17 GMT -5
I use the same answer I use about Santa Clause. "It's as real as you want it to be" Santa Clause is real. There's a man named Santa Clause, and he lives in the North Pole, which is a town. The town is in Alaska, and the entire town is filled with street names resembling Santa Clause, Streets, Rd's, Ave's, Lane's, Lot's, everything. There's a part where there's a gigantic, blissardy hill with roads on it, and there's not much there. When you continue driving up on that road, there is a Mcdonalds. A couple or lefts and rights later, and there is sant Clause's mantion, all decorated with Christmas lights and everything. There is a 40 ft Santa Statue on the fron yard along with many giant candy canes, and you can go inside like a big tourist attraction, you can take pictures with him and everything. he even has a buch of pics of him with famous people.. Santa Clause lives there in that house and It's his real legal name. Whenever you're kids mail a letter to Santa Clause, even if there's no address, they all go to him, and his staff (elves) are the ones who take care of it. A few misconceptions about Santa Clause: 1) Santa Clause doesn't use Reindeer to fly, as he is fine with using modern technology. 2) Santa dosen't deliver presents to every child in the world in one night, only a handfull. Besides, if he were to attempt that, it would only be to people who celebrate Christmas, and It would be two nights, not one, due to timezones. 3) Elf's are regular people, not little leporcons with pointed ears that wesr green. Elf's wear all different types of colors. 4) Santa dosen't go down the chimney of stangers houses. This legend came from an ancient man, who really did do this, named Saint Nick. He dropped gold down the chimneys of poor people. 5) Santa's helpers aren't always in direct contact with him, they just serve the same cause.
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Post by emoney3265 on Dec 27, 2007 18:30:00 GMT -5
Pre-determined, staged, and choreographed... I say those every time. I don't really care anymore though... it's just not worth it man.
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