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Post by Firearm: Supposed Big Deal on Dec 29, 2007 17:55:16 GMT -5
I always use "worked".
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Post by thesunbeast on Dec 29, 2007 23:26:09 GMT -5
It's another example in a long line of examples of people stating what something isn't than stating what something is.
That's the problem with illusions, is that there is alot of work going on, it's just that once you realize that what's really going on is different than what you see, people choose to define it based off of what they see not being the case rather than what they don't understand actually being the case.
Now, let me ask a question: Is a magician real?
Now, let me ask another question: Is an illusionist real?
See, People say, "hey, that guy's a magician", and people will say "magicians are fake" But another conversation with people of a different line of thinking would be like "yeah, that guy's an illusionist" and the other guy will be like "yeah, he's a really good illusionist".
That's why illusionists don't like to be called magicians, because you're glamorizing what they aren't, and minimizing what they are. If you say they're magicians, then you'll say they're fake, because they aren't actually doing what you think they're doing, but If you say they're illusionists, then it's real, because they actually are doing what you think they're doing.
It's the same thing with wrestling. I don't hear people saying "wow, you're a great actor, a great entertainer", all I hear is "you're a fake wrestler".
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Post by Janitor From Mars on Dec 29, 2007 23:33:47 GMT -5
I find it very, very irritating to me when people refer to wrestling as "fake." I don't believe it to be "fake." I hate that term, primarily because these days WWE presents itself as a TV show, and nothing more, complete with supernatural hijinks and intentional-near-murder. People don't refer to "24" as fake. They don't complain that the poorly choreographed fights in "Heroes" look "fake." And yet, somehow Kiefer Sutherland manages not to break his freaking neck, or go home from work sore every time he hits the set. I've always used the term "staged," because I feel it captures the risk factor while acknowledging the fact that it's just a TV show. We've all probably had this conversation. What term do you use, and why? I believe that it varies from scripted to improvised to downright shooting. Improvised is working with a script but adding more to the script to make the match seem more credible.
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Haulk
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,298
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Post by Haulk on Dec 29, 2007 23:45:50 GMT -5
Its real! Every challenge faced by wrestlers (except the endless travel) is faced in a corporate environment and real life situations. -relationships -unfair situations and stipulations -backstabbing -the thrill of victory -the agony of defeat -getting fired due to inadequate performance -getting over
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repomark
Unicron
For Mash Get Smash
Posts: 3,049
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Post by repomark on Dec 30, 2007 1:30:22 GMT -5
Yep - that is the termanology I use as well. However - the fact is anyone who does not enjoy wrestling will never accept it as anything other than large sweaty, half naked men pretending to hit each other, so your termanology is not that important to those outwith the wrestling viewership.
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reiko22
Team Rocket
The Flying Frenchman
Posts: 955
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Post by reiko22 on Dec 30, 2007 2:57:34 GMT -5
actually it is still real to me damnit
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Post by Loki on Dec 30, 2007 8:42:03 GMT -5
Now, let me ask a question: Is a magician real? Now, let me ask another question: Is an illusionist real? See, People say, "hey, that guy's a magician", and people will say "magicians are fake" But another conversation with people of a different line of thinking would be like "yeah, that guy's an illusionist" and the other guy will be like "yeah, he's a really good illusionist". That's why illusionists don't like to be called magicians, because you're glamorizing what they aren't, and minimizing what they are. If you say they're magicians, then you'll say they're fake, because they aren't actually doing what you think they're doing, but If you say they're illusionists, then it's real, because they actually are doing what you think they're doing. It's the same thing with wrestling. I don't hear people saying "wow, you're a great actor, a great entertainer", all I hear is "you're a fake wrestler". It's a quite good analogy... And I think the different implications of the names "magician" and "illusionist" may apply to "wrestler" and "Superstar" (or even the goofy Sports-Entertainer". WWE have been avoiding using the word wrestler because, like magician, it implies something they are NOT. Two Superstars aren't in the ring to outwrestle eachother and to score the pinfall. They're out there to give the IMPRESSION of doing so, but in reality they're playing a role, and entertaining the crowd. You know the "magician" can't saw the girl in half, but you enjoy the illusion. You know Orton isn't gonna "kill" Cena, but you enjoy the match. Problem is: illusionism is more or less accepted as "staged", even by the illusionists themselves. Pro wrestling still has an odd form of kayfabe, where the line between "fake" and "real" is blurred. And anyway, as we've said thousand of times... the competition is F - A - K - E but it's portrayed as real. And that's the reason behind a lot of wrestling-bashing by non fans. The more the fans will be stubbornly defending the "reality" of pro wrestling, the more laughed at we'll be
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Post by i.Sarita.com on Dec 30, 2007 9:04:47 GMT -5
Yeah, I usually just say that its nothing more than any other made-up television show...but I still get bashed for it, bleh...I long for the day that us wrestling fans won't be persecuted for our beliefs....
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Post by Loki on Dec 30, 2007 10:31:44 GMT -5
Yeah, I usually just say that its nothing more than any other made-up television show...but I still get bashed for it, bleh...I long for the day that us wrestling fans won't be persecuted for our beliefs.... I know this will cost me a lot of flack, but I don't care... We're "persecuted" because, if you really take your fan glasses off, the idea behind pro wrestling IS stupd! Two buff men in their underwear pretending to beat eachother up to score a pinfall. And all of that performing a lot of "ambiguous" or over-the-top moves. Let's not forget the action is choreographed and the endings are scripted, and there's a lot of soap opera drama too! The icing on the cake is: we actually KNOW it's fake but we enjoy it anyway, or even more. When we're not busy explaining (in tears or between a nervous breakdown and another) why it's real to us dammit! Now, if you're an average man, with no interest in staged fights or fake competition or soap operas, I'm not surprised pro wrestling and its fans are "persecuted", especially when they/we get in Defensive Mode Now, before I get eaten alive... I've been a wrestling fan for 23 years, but I don't let my fandom blind me. I enjoy watching a match, a show, whatever, but it doesn't mean I can't find the concept a bit silly. Or at least I don't think we'd pretend it has the same "respectability" of legit sports.
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Post by thesunbeast on Dec 30, 2007 16:44:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I usually just say that its nothing more than any other made-up television show...but I still get bashed for it, bleh...I long for the day that us wrestling fans won't be persecuted for our beliefs.... I know this will cost me a lot of flack, but I don't care... We're "persecuted" because, if you really take your fan glasses off, the idea behind pro wrestling IS stupd! Two buff men in their underwear pretending to beat eachother up to score a pinfall. And all of that performing a lot of "ambiguous" or over-the-top moves. Let's not forget the action is choreographed and the endings are scripted, and there's a lot of soap opera drama too! The icing on the cake is: we actually KNOW it's fake but we enjoy it anyway, or even more. When we're not busy explaining (in tears or between a nervous breakdown and another) why it's real to us dammit! Now, if you're an average man, with no interest in staged fights or fake competition or soap operas, I'm not surprised pro wrestling and its fans are "persecuted", especially when they/we get in Defensive Mode Now, before I get eaten alive... I've been a wrestling fan for 23 years, but I don't let my fandom blind me. I enjoy watching a match, a show, whatever, but it doesn't mean I can't find the concept a bit silly. Or at least I don't think we'd pretend it has the same "respectability" of legit sports. Pro wrestling dosen't have the same respectibility as real sports. No, no it dosen't. "Real sports" have way more respectibility. Yep, and also, 3 horns Never play with longnecks. Two men standing in the middle of a ring and punching each other dead in the face for 45 minutes untill they can't see anymore is much more respectible than two men standing in the middle of a ring and pretending to punch each other dead in the face. Two groups of 11 grown men charging for the one with a ball of pig skin untill they make it to a certain point and then they all stop so they can kick it. How about going to the biggest feild you can possibly find, and you should take a small ball and stick with you. Hit the ball with the stick really hard, then walk a few thousand feet. When you finally find the ball, well, hit it again! When you find it, just tap it and watch it roll. Then, watch it roll again! Sooner or later, it'll fall in a hole and you can call it ab day. See, you can't ever look at any form pf physival competition for just the concepts and curcumstances alone, because then it will all look silly. It's not about that. And besides, why are you comparing Pro wrestling to other "legit sports"? It sounds to me like you're viewing pro wrestling for what it isn't more than for what it is.
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Post by Panda Bear on Dec 30, 2007 16:53:09 GMT -5
actually it is still real to me damnit Hey, We already have one of those guys here!!! Scripted sounds right to me.
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Post by Loki on Dec 31, 2007 8:47:20 GMT -5
Pro wrestling dosen't have the same respectibility as real sports. No, no it dosen't. "Real sports" have way more respectibility. Yep, and also, 3 horns Never play with longnecks. Two men standing in the middle of a ring and punching each other dead in the face for 45 minutes untill they can't see anymore is much more respectible than two men standing in the middle of a ring and pretending to punch each other dead in the face. Two groups of 11 grown men charging for the one with a ball of pig skin untill they make it to a certain point and then they all stop so they can kick it. How about going to the biggest feild you can possibly find, and you should take a small ball and stick with you. Hit the ball with the stick really hard, then walk a few thousand feet. When you finally find the ball, well, hit it again! When you find it, just tap it and watch it roll. Then, watch it roll again! Sooner or later, it'll fall in a hole and you can call it ab day. See, you can't ever look at any form pf physival competition for just the concepts and curcumstances alone, because then it will all look silly. It's not about that. And besides, why are you comparing Pro wrestling to other "legit sports"? It sounds to me like you're viewing pro wrestling for what it isn't more than for what it is. I think you're so missing my point here... Every discipline/sport may be silly if overanalyzed, but the competition in it still makes it "worth", regardless of my feelings and thoughts about it. I'm not the one who's been comparing wrestling and legit sports with an apologetic intent. I have no problem with wrestling being fake and with non-fans calling it fake. Many other fans do, and they're resorting to "different" logic to justify something that doesn't really need justification. The biggest "stupidity" in pro wrestling isn't it's scripted/fake nature, but the fact it's still presented as legit, or real-ish, and that many fans will fight to defend its "reality"
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