Exactly WHAT has to be done regarding CM Punk?

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

This is not a "bashing" thread. I enjoy Punk's work. I have no intentions for it to become one, so please leave the "overrated/underrated" stuff outside.

I understand that Punk's longtime fans "do not want to see him fail". So what constitutes failure? Not completely owning someone he's feuding with with a viciously witty retort a la the Rock? Not squashing a super-heavyweight in three minutes before making him tap with the Vice? Holding the world title for about 5 months rather than all the way to Wrestlemania XXV?

I've read a comment claiming that- in less than one month, mind you- Punk's been the "weakest champion since Rey Mysterio" despite not doing a single job since winning the title. IMO, he's probably the most fiercely protected person on Raw, unlike "Super" Cena- who's lost two major PPV matches in a row.

Is this reign supposed to symbolize something that I'm not picking up on? Because if we are at the point of no return and it's already a complete disaster, let me know now.

[Threadkiller [Classic]]

Jul 22, 2008 10:29:29 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

This is not a "bashing" thread. I enjoy Punk's work. I have no intentions for it to become one, so please leave the "overrated/underrated" stuff outside.

I understand that Punk's longtime fans "do not want to see him fail". So what constitutes failure? Not completely owning someone he's feuding with with a viciously witty retort a la the Rock? Not squashing a super-heavyweight in three minutes before making him tap with the Vice? Holding the world title for about 5 months rather than all the way to Wrestlemania XXV?

I've read a comment claiming that- in less than one month, mind you- Punk's been the "weakest champion since Rey Mysterio" despite not doing a single job since winning the title. IMO, he's probably the most fiercely protected person on Raw, unlike "Super" Cena- who's lost two major PPV matches in a row.

Is this reign supposed to symbolize something that I'm not picking up on? Because if we are at the point of no return and it's already a complete disaster, let me know now.

THANK YOU.

It irks me to no end how people just hit the "fail" button and start crying a salty, nutrient-free river of tears when Punk doesn't reach into an opponent's chest cavity and rip out their beating heart.

What in the hell do people expect?

Seriously, he's been champion for THREE WEEKS. Take an antacid and quit breathing fire.

He beats JBL the first night as champion.
He needed Cena to distract JBL to win.

He beat Snitsky clean.
It's Snitsky, gimme someone who matters.

He beat Kane.
By countout.

He hasn't jobbed.
So?

I swear, there's a complaint for everything. If anyone had been told three months ago when he WAS getting jobbed left and right that Punk would be made world champion, no one would have believed it. I don't think that after THREE WEEKS I'm ready to declare Punk the weakest-booked champion ever. If anything, he was the weakest-booked Money in the Bank winner ever. But any other intrepid claims need to be stifled until such a time when we can actually SEE where they're going with Punk.

Sorry to be so fueled with vitriol, but I just can't take the extreme reactions some people are having to this title reign.

[Cyno]

I think Punk's reign is fine as is, really. I think the problem is people are expecting him to cleanly win over everyone on the roster who challenges him, and that's just not going to work at first. I think with the way the WWE are booking his reign and their awareness with the way people see him, he WILL get that clean win at Summerslam. They're building up to it. He might lose it at Unforgiven, No Mercy, or Survivor Series, but I don't think he'll lose at Summerslam.

It isn't like this is unprecedented. We've had a lot of title matches, for both the WWE and World titles, end in a non-finish on PPV's lately. It's frustrating, but it isn't unprecedented.

And I think "worst-booked champion since Rey Mysterio" is a load of horsecrap. He's holding his own against guys like Kane and Batista.

[BD Punk AKA SUSPENDED!]

I agree that he was the weakest booked MITB winner, but I'd argue that they were just having Punk tread water for a few months on ECW until they got him to Raw.

Now, because he was booked poorly for the last few months it just wouldn't be believable for him to come right out and start beating main event guys clean.

All of his title matches so far vs JBL and Batista have been highly competitive. Bats vs Punk at GAB was a nice back and forth match until Kane ran in. Punk actually DOMINATED 85% of the match vs Batista last night until Kane ran in. They are setting it up nicely for Punk to get a clean win over a main eventer at Summerslam to cement his spot as a main event player.

If they had him run over main event guys right out of the gate, he'd be the new Rocky Miavia. They are building him up slowly in fans minds by showing them that Punk can compete with ther main players.


IMO his title run has been booked very well so far.

[invincibleileak]

Since he won at GBA, and on Raw, I think he will be a fighting champion, who is always defending the title, I think he will keep on retaining for awhile on Raw before Jericho interupts a Punk promo, they then feud have a match at Summerslam where Jericho wins the title.
Punk should then go into a feud with a heel Batitsa, as they worked well together, once Punk is over as a top face, turn him heel, maybe teaming with Batitsa to screw Cena, only to attack Batista after, once he finishes his feud with Batitsa and cena with Cena, Cena should win at the end, as the face. Have a Punk/HBK feud with Punk going over Micheals at the end. When at the Rumble have Punk enter around the middle and get to the end with only one person to come out, have Kane be the last person, mask on, etc. Kane easily knocks out the tired Punk, who just before had knocked out Big Show.
Punk then enters a feud with rey Mysterio, and wins at the end. He feuds with a few upper-mid-card faces before attacking the no.1 contender and heel Kane before he can destroy Shawn Micheals, turning him face again, Micheals and Punk have a sort of team going all the way to Wrestlemania, where Punk is in the MITB and Micheals is in another match with Batista/Cena, have Punk stop Batista win against Micheals when Micheals is 'injured' when Punk is just about to win the MITB have HBK coem out with a walking stick, Punk stops looking confused at why Micheals is there, Punk gets off the ladder walks up to Micheals who stops limping and attacks Punk with the stick, he then helps up, Brian kendrick, and helps him up the ladder, meaning Kendrick has won the MITB.
Micheals/Kendrick/Ezekial feud with Punk to Backlash and beyond.

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

I'd compare his reign to Kurt Angle's first reign. Angle was booked almost exactly the same way - overshadowed by feuds between traditional main eventers (Austin and HHH), interference rampant throughout his matches, etc.

The difference is that Punk is a face, and therefore he's actually working toward a clean win. Last night was clearly building toward Punk becoming fully credible.

People are just really jumpy after Mysterio's title run ensured that the little guy will never, ever hold a big title again.

[wrestlecrapcrap]

Everyone's acting like he was the worst booked MITB winner and now they are having to 'undo' their work during his reign.

I don't think it was that. I think they knew exactly what they were doing, and they wanted him to look like the underdog. If Jeff Hardy had won the MITB and cashed it in, he wouldn't be an underdog, because he's had good wins against Umaga, Kennedy, and HHH in recent months and he's had good performances against Orton and in the Eliminaiton Chamber. He wouldn't be the underdog, and they'd know that.

Punk though, I believe they wanted him to be the underdog and not be too big too soon. That's why he could lose to Miz and Kane, but he still get some wins against Morrison to keep him in a reasonable spot. I think they knew exactly where they were going with it though.

[MGH]

The only thing that HAS to be done, without question, if him getting more promo time. Being able to actually FINISH one without being cut out would be nice too. He's being booked to look legit now for the most part, but it still stands to fact that he's the most underutilized man with awesome mic skills in that company.

[The Tank]

I'll tell you WHAT has to be done to appease the IWC:

An 11v1 Handicap Match. CM Punk vs. Triple H, Cena, Batista, Edge, Orton, Mysterio, Khali, Henry, JBL, Kane, and Taker. Punk must squash all of them in 10 minutes, and win by forcing Cena and Taker to submit at the same time.

THAT'S how to appease the IWC.

[Mr Captain Falcon]

Wasn't it like 2 months ago that the Miz beat him CLEAN?

[Robbymac]

Jul 22, 2008 11:12:53 GMT -5 The Tank said:

I'll tell you WHAT has to be done to appease the IWC:

An 11v1 Handicap Match. CM Punk vs. Triple H, Cena, Batista, Edge, Orton, Mysterio, Khali, Henry, JBL, Kane, and Taker. Punk must squash all of them in 10 minutes, and win by forcing Cena and Taker to submit at the same time.

THAT'S how to appease the IWC.

No, they'd bitch cause Triple H didn't do the job.

[The Genesis of KoOS]

This is the way *I* see it through the eyes of a *CASUAL* fan.

C.M. Punk has not established himself yet. He was a big fish in a small pond (ECW), how can he compare against guys like John Cena, Batista, Kane, etc? He's never pinned a guy like that in a one-on-one match. Heck, he could not even beat Chavo Guerrero when it counted.

He only defeated Edge because Batista beat him up first. Then he beats JBL only because Cena and Cryme Tyme came out and JBL was distracted. Sure he beat Snitsky, but Snitsky is a nobody. He beat Kane by countout, but he didn't pin him and ontop of that, Kane decimated Punk after the match and he had to be saved by Batista. Again he got saved by someone bigger than him. And then Punk shoved Batista, only for Batista to retaliate with a spinebuster.

Cue to the Great American Bash, Punk did show that he could go toe-to-toe with Batista, but Batista looked like he was about to win the World Title, then Kane came out and basically saved Punk from losing the title.

Then last night on Raw, Batista was about to win the title AGAIN, then JBL came out and saved Punk from losing the title.

How can I get behind a champion who has never really proven himself on the main show, only won the title due to someone else's dirty work, and then has to be saved from losing the title in EVERY match he is in?
--------

Most of the casual fans don't buy Punk as WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION, because they haven't been given a reason to. Sure he's had the title for weeks, but how many times besides the first night and the match with Snitsky have you seen Punk standing tall at the end of the day? And what I mean is being able to keep the title without being saved through someone else's interference?

I'm not saying his reign is worse than Mysterio's, but at least Rey was already an established star on Smackdown. Punk at this moment, NEEDS to show he can beat a few of Raw's top stars cleanly during his title reign to show the fans who never really watched ECW that "this guy is for real and to be taken seriously".

If he keeps the title via DQs, Countouts, Outside Interference, etc. then those fans will see Punk as nothing more than a fluke champion. And he will not be taken seriously for a long, long time.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Jul 22, 2008 11:27:08 GMT -5 The Genesis of KoOS said:

This is the way *I* see it through the eyes of a *CASUAL* fan.

C.M. Punk has not established himself yet. He was a big fish in a small pond (ECW), how can he compare against guys like John Cena, Batista, Kane, etc? He's never pinned a guy like that in a one-on-one match. Heck, he could not even beat Chavo Guerrero when it counted.

He only defeated Edge because Batista beat him up first. Then he beats JBL only because Cena and Cryme Tyme came out and JBL was distracted. Sure he beat Snitsky, but Snitsky is a nobody. He beat Kane by countout, but he didn't pin him and ontop of that, Kane decimated Punk after the match and he had to be saved by Batista. Again he got saved by someone bigger than him. And then Punk shoved Batista, only for Batista to retaliate with a spinebuster.

Cue to the Great American Bash, Punk did show that he could go toe-to-toe with Batista, but Batista looked like he was about to win the World Title, then Kane came out and basically saved Punk from losing the title.

Then last night on Raw, Batista was about to win the title AGAIN, then JBL came out and saved Punk from losing the title.

How can I get behind a champion who has never really proven himself on the main show, only won the title due to someone else's dirty work, and then has to be saved from losing the title in EVERY match he is in?
--------

Most of the casual fans don't buy Punk as WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION, because they haven't been given a reason to. Sure he's had the title for weeks, but how many times besides the first night and the match with Snitsky have you seen Punk standing tall at the end of the day? And what I mean is being able to keep the title without being saved through someone else's interference?

I'm not saying his reign is worse than Mysterio's, but at least Rey was already an established star on Smackdown. Punk at this moment, NEEDS to show he can beat a few of Raw's top stars cleanly during his title reign to show the fans who never really watched ECW that "this guy is for real and to be taken seriously".

If he keeps the title via DQs, Countouts, Outside Interference, etc. then those fans will see Punk as nothing more than a fluke champion. And he will not be taken seriously for a long, long time.

And there's something else I neglected to mention: Those have been more or less the CM Punk character's thoughts lately. It's practically an angle in itself.

[The Genesis of KoOS]

Jul 22, 2008 11:30:23 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

Jul 22, 2008 11:27:08 GMT -5 The Genesis of KoOS said:

This is the way *I* see it through the eyes of a *CASUAL* fan.

C.M. Punk has not established himself yet. He was a big fish in a small pond (ECW), how can he compare against guys like John Cena, Batista, Kane, etc? He's never pinned a guy like that in a one-on-one match. Heck, he could not even beat Chavo Guerrero when it counted.

He only defeated Edge because Batista beat him up first. Then he beats JBL only because Cena and Cryme Tyme came out and JBL was distracted. Sure he beat Snitsky, but Snitsky is a nobody. He beat Kane by countout, but he didn't pin him and ontop of that, Kane decimated Punk after the match and he had to be saved by Batista. Again he got saved by someone bigger than him. And then Punk shoved Batista, only for Batista to retaliate with a spinebuster.

Cue to the Great American Bash, Punk did show that he could go toe-to-toe with Batista, but Batista looked like he was about to win the World Title, then Kane came out and basically saved Punk from losing the title.

Then last night on Raw, Batista was about to win the title AGAIN, then JBL came out and saved Punk from losing the title.

How can I get behind a champion who has never really proven himself on the main show, only won the title due to someone else's dirty work, and then has to be saved from losing the title in EVERY match he is in?
--------

Most of the casual fans don't buy Punk as WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION, because they haven't been given a reason to. Sure he's had the title for weeks, but how many times besides the first night and the match with Snitsky have you seen Punk standing tall at the end of the day? And what I mean is being able to keep the title without being saved through someone else's interference?

I'm not saying his reign is worse than Mysterio's, but at least Rey was already an established star on Smackdown. Punk at this moment, NEEDS to show he can beat a few of Raw's top stars cleanly during his title reign to show the fans who never really watched ECW that "this guy is for real and to be taken seriously".

If he keeps the title via DQs, Countouts, Outside Interference, etc. then those fans will see Punk as nothing more than a fluke champion. And he will not be taken seriously for a long, long time.

And there's something else I neglected to mention: Those have been more or less the CM Punk character's thoughts lately. It's practically an angle in itself.

Yeah, but he can say "Oh well I'll show people that I'm not a fluke by defending this title." then he goes out and gets basically saved from losing the title. So it's basically back to square one "I'm not a fluke, I'll show you, you'll see!"

The fans will stop buying the whole "I'm not a fluke champion" bit if they keep on booking finishes like they did the last two nights. If he beat Batista cleanly last night, it would have helped a LOT. The casuals will be like "Wow he beat Batista in the middle of the ring! He beat the Animal! Punk is really good!" And they would start to realize that Punk deserves to be World Champion.

That's what needs to be done if the company wants to make Punk a legit champion. Most fans aren't currently buying Punk as THE World Champion.

[waffleofpower]

I'll put it this way. I hardly ever watched RAW live before Punk won the title. I want to see Punk. I don't wanna see Cena/JBL/Batista. But that's what I'm getting. They just completely overshadow Punk. Like last night when JBL kicked him out of the ring and he just vanished. Wouldn't it make more sense to go after the CHAMPION? I'm not saying his reign has reached "epic fail" levels, but for the moment it's losing my interest since he just seems to be an afterthought.

A feud with Jericho would have been great. I'm sure those two would have good matches together.

[hollywood]

I'm fine with Punk's reign. I'd like to see him get a clean win before it's over, but I can understand why they're not giving him those, yet.

He was practically thrust into the main even scene with his victory over Edge. And since he hadn't been pushed really hard yet, he was kinda overshadowed by guys like JBL, Batista, John Cena, and so on. So I get why they're being cautious about having him dominate an established star.

But even if he doesn't get that elusive clean victory over a major star, and he gets the begeezuss jobbed out of him to someone like Tista, that'll be okay, too. It was a great ride seeing someone from my favorite little promotion (ROH) get the world title in what was truly a special moment, whether it was ever meant to be or not.

And besides, he'll almost certainly get another title match later on, anyway.

[Not in the Face!!!]

I just don't get why both times the run in happened when Punk looked weakest. In ensures he looks second rate. If the fights were even when the run ins happened he would have looked better and Batista would not have looked worse.

If it is build up to him getting a clean win over a big guy for a surprise moment and feel good moment then it makes sense. If he loses the title clean after only beating Snitsky then it will have been a fluke reign from begining to end.

[kingoftheindies]

I don't have a problem with his reign. I see a lot of similarities to Angle's first win as well. All the top guys (and Rikishi) felt that they were the most deserving of a title shot and did whatever they could to cost the others their chance. Led to the 6 man hell in a cell match, which Angle won. He didn't exactly look dominant in the match, but he came out looking as an equal to Rock,Austin,Trips, and Taker (and Rikishi).

Just replace those 5 with Cena,Batista,JBL, and Kane... maybe Regal as well when he comes back.

It's not like Punk isn't over either, he just went from being a guy that rarely wrestled anywhere but ECW (even during the SD talent exchange) to becoming the top dog on a show that has 3 of the most over wrestlers in the WWE (Cena,Batista, and Orton when he gets back).

In hindsite, they probably should've held off on Punk/Batista and had him fight JBL or Kane first since they are guys that could give Punk very credible victories and help build him to Cena/Batista level.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

I think the problem isn't that they're making him look weak, it's that they're booking him like a heel. Mysterio was booked (poorly) to be an underdog, and so he lost all the time. Punk doesn't lose, he just pulls out a bunch of Honky-Tonk-Man victories.

So, this is either a piss-poor way of making a new big face, or a really good way of making a new big heel. The way Punk has been booked, the only thing that makes sense is for him to be a heel mastermind who has been working with Kane and maybe JBL the whole time.


Because let me put it this way. Imagine if Punk actually does finally get his huge, clean, PPV victory over Batista, proving himself as a real champion. Do you think the audience would break into frantic cheers? Of course not, they'd cheer some and boo a lot, because the guy who won is either a bad guy who hasn't turned yet, or he's a schmuck.

[The OP]

WHAT?



Sorry, I'll leave.