ToyfareMark
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Post by ToyfareMark on May 31, 2009 18:22:43 GMT -5
So it was 10 years ago that Gotham was cut off from the United States after a 7.6 earthquake crippled the city. Those who stayed behind had to tend for themselves. I really loved this storyline and always thought it would make really great movie...even if it was just animated. Who else remembers this storyline fondly? Or bitterly for that matter.
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Post by Citizen Snips on May 31, 2009 18:31:51 GMT -5
I heard it was good, but didn't it span like 145 issues of various Batman comics? I don't have that kind of time, man!
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Post by teamjd on May 31, 2009 18:33:30 GMT -5
The two-Face stuff was good, the Joker stuff was not. For a lot of people, I know thats when they got fed up with DC and the Joker.
(spoilers)
He shoots Jim's wife as she saves children, then Gordan, because he's a cop, shoots him in the knees when he confronts him. Ridiculous. Jim is not Batman, a cop killing a cop killer under those circumstances wouldn't have been unbelievable.
(end)
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Post by The Tank on May 31, 2009 18:35:12 GMT -5
The two-Face stuff was good, the Joker stuff was not. For a lot of people, I know thats when they got fed up with DC and the Joker. (spoilers) He shoots Jim's wife as she saves children, then Gordan, because he's a cop, shoots him in the knees when he confronts him. Ridiculous. Jim is not Batman, a cop killing a cop killer under those circumstances wouldn't have been unbelievable. (end) Yes, but the fact that Gordon is Batman's biggest proponent makes it work.
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Post by teamjd on May 31, 2009 18:39:16 GMT -5
Yes, but the fact that Gordon is Batman's biggest proponent makes it work. = spoilers = It was a cop and his WIFE. After he'd been kidnapped by him, and his daughter had been paralyzed by him. There is NO REASON Gordon, in any sort of real world scenario (as NML was trying to play up), couldn't have snapped. Instead, Joker is fine then shows up in Gotham Central comic sniping police officers not long after. Its the same thing with Dr. Light in Identity Crisis. Green Arrow, armed with ARROWS, see's his friend being raped and shoots Light in the arm? = end =
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ToyfareMark
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Post by ToyfareMark on May 31, 2009 18:43:20 GMT -5
I heard it was good, but didn't it span like 145 issues of various Batman comics? I don't have that kind of time, man! I believe it was 80 comics, and 40 of them were made into 5 graphic novels. But even that takes alot of time to read.
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Post by salsashark on May 31, 2009 19:00:45 GMT -5
I remember it being awful. I still have a prose novelization of it.
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Post by The Tank on May 31, 2009 19:04:54 GMT -5
Yes, but the fact that Gordon is Batman's biggest proponent makes it work. = spoilers = It was a cop and his WIFE. After he'd been kidnapped by him, and his daughter had been paralyzed by him. There is NO REASON Gordon, in any sort of real world scenario (as NML was trying to play up), couldn't have snapped. Instead, Joker is fine then shows up in Gotham Central comic sniping police officers not long after. Its the same thing with Dr. Light in Identity Crisis. Green Arrow, armed with ARROWS, see's his friend being raped and shoots Light in the arm? = end = JD, you're answering your own question. Green Arrow didn't kill Dr. Light because HE'S A HERO. Just because Gordon's "just a cop" doesn't mean he'll have a "normal reaction" to The Joker's actions and KILL HIM. You have to remember, just because it's meant to be "realistic" doesn't mean they're gonna break character.
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erisi236
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... enjoys the rich, smooth taste of Camels.
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Post by erisi236 on May 31, 2009 19:10:39 GMT -5
Doesn't matter anyway, even if Gordon shot Joker 15 times in the head and then burned the remains, he'd still be back in a few issues.
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Post by teamjd on May 31, 2009 19:19:48 GMT -5
JD, you're answering your own question. Green Arrow didn't kill Dr. Light because HE'S A HERO. Just because Gordon's "just a cop" doesn't mean he'll have a "normal reaction" to The Joker's actions and KILL HIM. You have to remember, just because it's meant to be "realistic" doesn't mean they're gonna break character. HEROES have no problem instead using mind rape to manipulate peoples minds? Why is stripping away dignity and individuality without the courts approval the heroic thing to do, but stopping a rapist RIGHT NOW unheroic? My question wasn't answered by me at all, especially when Identity Crisis was written to be more 'real', hence the rape in the first place. Hell, Green Lantern could have taken him to Oa and locked him up forever, but instead they chose to violate his civil rights and then put him back on the street. Letting rapists walk the streets free isn't my kind of hero. As for Gordan, where in his character does he have a history of not killing someone who just murdered his wife in cold blood? there's no precedent for that; its like saying Bruce wouldn't become Batman because he had never been a vigilante before his parents were killed, so its not in his character. If you ever meet real people, you'll see that they act "out of character" all the time in any stressful situation. And Gordan had to be at a higher stress point then anytime in his life before, given everything that had/was happening with Joker and NML. That's why realism doesn't work in comics. They want the gritty real, but only the pretty grit and not what people are actually like. He COULD have made the same choice in the real world,but to say he HAD to because of his character is a lie when its presented with any kind of realism. Anything to do with Joker and realism is a joke in comics, as some rogue cop would have put a bullet in his head. He's killed HUNDREDS people (or had a few years ago, if that hasn't been rebooted). Weren't there other cops with Jim when he shot Joker's knees? Not one of them though "STOP THE MASS MURDERER!!". Joker's bombed parades full of children, but when Gotham's real last line of defense has a chance to stop him they walk away and hop for the best? None of those men were heroes that day. Because none of them saved the day, they just did what they could to make sure there was a lot of bad days coming. All thanks to 'realism'. It doesn't work in superhero comics, and this is one of the prime examples why writers need to remember these are just comics. When you're working with 60 years of a characters history, who the company wants alive for another 60, you can't treat it like its a 2 hour movie that may or may not get a sequel.
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Post by teamjd on May 31, 2009 19:23:14 GMT -5
Great, now all I can think about is the issue where Joker gets the chair, but he didn't commit this PARTICULAR murder so Batman proves he's innocent.
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Post by The Tank on May 31, 2009 19:24:52 GMT -5
JD, you're answering your own question. Green Arrow didn't kill Dr. Light because HE'S A HERO. Just because Gordon's "just a cop" doesn't mean he'll have a "normal reaction" to The Joker's actions and KILL HIM. You have to remember, just because it's meant to be "realistic" doesn't mean they're gonna break character. HEROES have no problem instead using mind rape to manipulate peoples minds? Why is stripping away dignity and individuality without the courts approval the heroic thing to do, but stopping a rapist RIGHT NOW unheroic? My question wasn't answered by me at all, especially when Identity Crisis was written to be more 'real', hence the rape in the first place. Hell, Green Lantern could have taken him to Oa and locked him up forever, but instead they chose to violate his civil rights and then put him back on the street. Letting rapists walk the streets free isn't my kind of hero. As for Gordan, where in his character does he have a history of not killing someone who just murdered his wife in cold blood? there's no precedent for that; its like saying Bruce wouldn't become Batman because he had never been a vigilante before his parents were killed, so its not in his character. If you ever meet real people, you'll see that they act "out of character" all the time in any stressful situation. And Gordan had to be at a higher stress point then anytime in his life before, given everything that had/was happening with Joker and NML. That's why realism doesn't work in comics. They want the gritty real, but only the pretty grit and not what people are actually like. He COULD have made the same choice in the real world,but to say he HAD to because of his character is a lie when its presented with any kind of realism. Anything to do with Joker and realism is a joke in comics, as some rogue cop would have put a bullet in his head. He's killed HUNDREDS people (or had a few years ago, if that hasn't been rebooted). Weren't there other cops with Jim when he shot Joker's knees? Not one of them though "STOP THE MASS MURDERER!!". Joker's bombed parades full of children, but when Gotham's real last line of defense has a chance to stop him they walk away and hop for the best? None of those men were heroes that day. Because none of them saved the day, they just did what they could to make sure there was a lot of bad days coming. All thanks to 'realism'. It doesn't work in superhero comics, and this is one of the prime examples why writers need to remember these are just comics. When you're working with 60 years of a characters history, who the company wants alive for another 60, you can't treat it like its a 2 hour movie that may or may not get a sequel. Well, I'm beat. It's time to concede and go to the copout argument... Dude, it's a f***ing comic book. Don't over-analyze it. ;D
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Post by teamjd on May 31, 2009 19:28:07 GMT -5
Well, I'm beat. It's time to concede and go to the copout argument... Dude, it's a f***ing comic book. Don't over-analyze it. ;D And this is my short argument! You should have seen me back when Identity Crisis came out! to lighten the mood: NML introduced Cassandra Cain. I'd hit it.
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ToyfareMark
Vegeta
A WINNER IS YOU!
In Hutch I trust!
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Post by ToyfareMark on May 31, 2009 20:06:18 GMT -5
So it seems you guys are mostly debating the ending. Not killing the Joker was a cop out (no pun intended). But everyone knew there was no way he'd be killed. I'm surprised that no one has said how silly it was that the US would cut Gotham off in the first place. But despite the start and the ending, it was the meat that really made this sandwich.....and yes I realize how stupid that sounds.
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Post by sunwukong on May 31, 2009 20:08:03 GMT -5
It was ok. The general idea was good, and when it was executed well it was fantastic. But as has been said, it was way too long. And I was never a fan of Luthor showing up at the end to rebuild. While he was working an angle (as always), it still felt very Deus Ex Machina-like.
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Post by Toom E. Guci on May 31, 2009 21:08:43 GMT -5
And yet...nobody still cares about the destruction of Bludhaven. *sigh*
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Post by Cela on May 31, 2009 21:20:02 GMT -5
And when Joker does get killed, after killing off the entire Daily Planet, what happens? Superman loses faith in Mankind and leaves.
One of my many issues with comic books, way to moral.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on May 31, 2009 21:37:31 GMT -5
I loved the storyline, but hated the end results. I'm just a big fan of 70's and 80's Batman, so I hated that they rebuilt Gotham to look like Metropolis.
Also, the artwork in most the No Man's Land titles was complete rubbish, and varies so much that if you try to read it as a collective, the style changes every 17 pages. Annoying.
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Jay Peas 42
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Post by Jay Peas 42 on May 31, 2009 21:52:23 GMT -5
Well, the only thing I can tell you, is that there is a wonderful alternate universe out there, where the Justice Lords had the Joker's brain fried, and left him to run Arkam Asylum. However, Flash is dead, and apparently civil liberties are dead for some reason that was really left unexplained. So it's a wash.
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Post by Cela on May 31, 2009 22:11:40 GMT -5
Well, the only thing I can tell you, is that there is a wonderful alternate universe out there, where the Justice Lords had the Joker's brain fried, and left him to run Arkam Asylum. However, Flash is dead, and apparently civil liberties are dead for some reason that was really left unexplained. So it's a wash. Because Comics work on the slippery slope logic plane. Anyone who kills anyone immediately becomes a frothing Joker level mass murderer.
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