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Post by -Lithium- on Oct 15, 2009 18:33:45 GMT -5
Flair, easily. Austin was a short term success. Austins the reason the WWF is still around today. Not exactly short term...
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Post by kiwiabroad on Oct 15, 2009 21:20:24 GMT -5
Personally, I think that many of the pro-Austin voices here are showing their age, not all of them, but many. Austin is ENORMOUSLY important if you were born in the late 80's or the 90's, because quite frankly, it's all you have been exposed to as it is happening. It's the same as saying that Adrian Peterson is the best running back ever: it discounts names like Jim Brown, Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton and Barry Sanders. Adrian Peterson might be the best now, he might be the best of the last 10 years, but he isn't the best ever yet. Truth be told, you need to wait another 30 years before you even consider it, simply because by that time a proper perspective can be placed. The temptation with new or recent things is to immediately proclaim them as more important that that which is not so memorable.
Younger fans remember Flair first and foremost as a saggy looking guy in his late 50s who couildn't really go anymore. Fair enough, for the better part that's what he's been in recent years. Elvis in his latter years was a fat guy in Vegas. Did it diminish his impact on music long term? No it did not.
Flair is more important for a couple of reasons. Firstly, he is the very definition of a travelling heel champ. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but in the territory days, Flair DROVE the NWA, touring with the belt and effectively creating local heroes wherever he was feuding. He'd feud with the local kid, barely escape with the title, and move on to the next town. Meanwhile, the local territory has an elevated face, a stronger roster and increased revenue. Exactly the way wrestling should work.
Second, I urge people to remember Flair's longevity. In the 30 years or so that he's been involved on the big stage, how many in ring injuries has he had? How many months was he on the shelf? In wrestling, being able to keep yourself healthy is probably the most important skill of all, because it can't be taught. You can learn to sell, you can learn psychology, you can't learn to not tear quads.
Third, and I think most overlooked, is that Flair was involved in maybe the most important stable of all time in the Four Horseman. I'd guess there are few things in wrestling that mean more to a wrestler than being a Horseman. I could be wrong, that's just a gut feeling.
Don't get me wrong, Austin is important in wrestling history. But he's important because of the things going on around him, not because of his sheer influence. Attitude was the turning point for the WWE because of Vince McMahon, not Steve Austin. Vince played the perfect heel for Austin to succeed off, because he was the boss you loved to hate and that resonated with the fans. If it wasn't Austin getting the pops for his run-ins with Vince, someone else would have.
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Mac
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Posts: 16,502
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Post by Mac on Oct 15, 2009 22:07:41 GMT -5
Personally, I think that many of the pro-Austin voices here are showing their age, not all of them, but many. Austin is ENORMOUSLY important if you were born in the late 80's or the 90's, because quite frankly, it's all you have been exposed to as it is happening. It's the same as saying that Adrian Peterson is the best running back ever: it discounts names like Jim Brown, Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton and Barry Sanders. Adrian Peterson might be the best now, he might be the best of the last 10 years, but he isn't the best ever yet. Truth be told, you need to wait another 30 years before you even consider it, simply because by that time a proper perspective can be placed. The temptation with new or recent things is to immediately proclaim them as more important that that which is not so memorable. Younger fans remember Flair first and foremost as a saggy looking guy in his late 50s who couildn't really go anymore. Fair enough, for the better part that's what he's been in recent years. Elvis in his latter years was a fat guy in Vegas. Did it diminish his impact on music long term? No it did not. Flair is more important for a couple of reasons. Firstly, he is the very definition of a travelling heel champ. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but in the territory days, Flair DROVE the NWA, touring with the belt and effectively creating local heroes wherever he was feuding. He'd feud with the local kid, barely escape with the title, and move on to the next town. Meanwhile, the local territory has an elevated face, a stronger roster and increased revenue. Exactly the way wrestling should work. Second, I urge people to remember Flair's longevity. In the 30 years or so that he's been involved on the big stage, how many in ring injuries has he had? How many months was he on the shelf? In wrestling, being able to keep yourself healthy is probably the most important skill of all, because it can't be taught. You can learn to sell, you can learn psychology, you can't learn to not tear quads. Third, and I think most overlooked, is that Flair was involved in maybe the most important stable of all time in the Four Horseman. I'd guess there are few things in wrestling that mean more to a wrestler than being a Horseman. I could be wrong, that's just a gut feeling. Don't get me wrong, Austin is important in wrestling history. But he's important because of the things going on around him, not because of his sheer influence. Attitude was the turning point for the WWE because of Vince McMahon, not Steve Austin. Vince played the perfect heel for Austin to succeed off, because he was the boss you loved to hate and that resonated with the fans. If it wasn't Austin getting the pops for his run-ins with Vince, someone else would have. Yeah you're projecting the common smarky attitude that only the fans who came into wrestling during the attitude era respect Austin over Flair because Flair was washed up and a bit player by then.. and thats just ludicrous on a few accounts. First, theres going to be more people who remember Austin over Flair because Austin helped bring in a new era of wrestling fandom that almost doubled the viewing audience in the span on ONE YEAR. Second, Myself and others have posted dozens upon dozens of points, measurable points pointing towards Austin being a more important figure than Flair.. few points have been disputed, many have been outright ignored. Don't get me wrong, your point about Flair being a traveling champ was great, he was that as were his predesesors, they all traveled, and to the same territories and many even in the same sold out buildings. Why does that put Flair above say a Harley Race? In fact that point even dilutes Flair somewhat... Austin was on 9 times a month once Smackdown hit... same homes against the same guys... he should have been overexposed immediatlly.. Flair had the luxury of having bi-monthy mega shows in different territories, freshening up his act and working against different guys who had been built up as hometown heroes WAY BEFORE Flair ever showed up.. Flair didnt make hometown heroes of Dusty Rhodes in Florida, Kerry Von Erich in South Texas, The Funks in West Texas, Roddy Piper in the Northwest and so on and so on... give the guys Flair was fueding with the respect too.. they were over faces long before Flair came into town to face him. These local heroes helped Flair out getting heel heat as much as Flair helped them get face heat, thats really indisputable. ANd if you can name the guy who would have gotten over on Vince as much as Austin would have let me hear who it is.. thats as vacant an opinion as me saying "Well.. someone would have gotten over just as much as Flair because everthing else around him was the same. I still stand by my original argument... without Flair we're deprived a wrestling legend who put on hundreds of outstanding matches with memorable angles and interviews that made us richer as wrestling fans for having. But without Austin the world of wrestling today and over the past decade would be almost unrecognizable.
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Post by tarheelfan on Oct 16, 2009 0:25:10 GMT -5
Looking at the quite frankly pathetic shape that wrestling or should I say sports entertainment(insert sarcasm) is in today one could make the argument that Austins popularity in saving the WWE ironically did more longterm damage to wrestling. I frankly believe that Austin was important because he helped saved the WWE but a multitude of wrestling fans like myself would rather have had WCW win out over the WWE. So yes Austin was important for the WWE; HOWEVER was his popularity in RETROSPECT(key word) good or healthy for wrestling in the longrun. I know there is no disputing that WCW has had not so good management over the years but if I took an educated guess I think that WCW of today would be much better than the frankly garbage product of sports entertainment that many fans think we are suffering through today. So in a sense one could use a premise that Flair is looked upon so fondly because he personifies a better time in wrestling of the good ole days for lack of a better term.
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Post by slasher911 on Oct 16, 2009 0:38:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure how anyone could blame the current state of the WWE, etc. on Austin. Wrestling sucked balls before Austin became a huge hit, so the logic isn't really there.
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Post by tarheelfan on Oct 16, 2009 1:02:18 GMT -5
I'm not sure how anyone could blame the current state of the WWE, etc. on Austin. Wrestling sucked balls before Austin became a huge hit, so the logic isn't really there. I don't think wrestling stunk before Austin came along. If wrestling stunk before Austin came along than by default one would have to say that the overall perception was that the WCW and NWO stunk. Which it actually didn't. Maybe the WWE stunk before Austin came along but to say or imply that wrestling in general stunk before Austin became popular is to simply ignore the fact that WCW was popular. The argument that I am presenting is that since Austin did save the WWE that one could logically argue that wrestling has suffered in the longterm because the WWE is for all practical purposes the main national promotion and quite frankly the sports entertainment product of today is atrocious. I know I am sounding like a broken record saying this but I have watched wrestling since around 1981 and I have never seen wrestling in this bad of shape. And so when someone uses the argument that Austin saved the WWE then by default I can logically say that we have the Stone Cold character to blame for the wrestling woes today. Because if Stone Cold did not save the WWE and WCW won the ratings war then an educated guess could be used that WCW would still be around today and their product of wrestling would likely be better since they were more a product of the old NWA territorial style than sports entertainment. I guess the bottom line is that the WWE may have gone under had Austin not saved it with its popularity.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Oct 17, 2009 15:50:11 GMT -5
Austins the reason the WWF is still around today. Not exactly short term... Well, we'll have to disagree on this because I've never felt that Austin alone saved the company. And I don't care how successful it was, 5 or 6 years is a short term success. His most memorable feud was with Vince and I'll freely admit I've never understood how it got as over as it did. I thought his stuff with Rock was great. I thought he had some damn good matches with Benoit and Jericho. But although I know he did more than those things, that's all that readily comes to mind for me. And the Vince thing seems to overshadow everything else, and the only lasting contribution that made was the "evil boss" routine for the next several years. I stand by it. Short term success.
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Post by quantum on Oct 17, 2009 16:08:46 GMT -5
WWF was in a major downtime before Austin came along. You may have personally liked the product 9I did New Generation is my personal favorite time of WWF). They were borderline bankrupt and would have went bankrupt if something big had not came along and pulled WWF and Vince deep out of the red. That something came along in the form of Austin and 3.16 took off.
The same time (or just after) NWO took of in WCW. The timing was impeccable. If Austin had not came along when he did WWF would have went bankrupt for sure. The real settler was after Wrestlemania 14 when the age of Austin 9and the Attitude Era 'officially' started) and viewers switched from WCW to WWF slowly but surly. Making way for the biggest boom in wrestling history 9much bigger than the 80's boom). Turning WWF from a company loosing millions of dollars per year to making millions of dollars per year. More than they have ever made in revenue by far. Austin helped turn WWF from a near bankrupt company (and again they would have went out of business for sure if Austin had not came along). To a multi million dollar company once again. Then when they won the war in 2001. WWF had already made eno0ugh money by that poi9nt to keep them in business for years to come no matter what they done. Thanks to Austin turning things round in favor for Vince (and yes thanks partly to the peopl,e Austin was fueding against as well). Fact is if Austin had not came along when he did WWF would have went out of business and if WW went out of business WCW still would have followed in 2001 (more than likely no matter what WCW were always detained to fail from the start). It would have 9at least0 changed the face of American wrestling for good. Also as WWF would have went out of business if not for Austin 9which would have changed the face of wrestling in America especially after 2001) and WWF in the attitude era made enough money to keep them in business for years to come no matter what they done from Austin and The Attitude Era. It hardly can be said that Austin was short term success. Through DVD sales and other merchandise from the attitude era Austin is still helping WWF bring in money all be it a little indirect than before even now.
A lot of Flair fans are stating that 'Most the fans Austin brought in have already left or left just after The Attitude Era'. However this argument doesn;t hold water. As just because they no longer watch Raw or WWF TV anymore. They (or most of) will still buy DVDs (of the Attitude Era when Austin was in WWF and before) as well as other merchandise (WWE games etc) because it reminds them of when Austin was in the company and the glory days of WWF Attitude. Just because they may not watch the awful program WWE puts on now don;t ness mean they are gone and lost form the fan base for good. I watch mostly old wrestling and old DVDs form 80;'s or 90;'s and watch on PC. I don;t watch WWE program except for the odd Sunday morning catch up However I would still consider myself a wrestling fan and by buying other merchandise and DVDs I still I am putting money WWE way just like the other fans who Austin brought in. Also just because they no linger watch the program doesn;t mean they don;t catch up on P.C (you tube, daily motion etc) which was a lot harder and not as wide spread during Austins day. Fact is the ratings are far different today than what they were back in the day for various reasons (not just that the program's not as good0 and they're are a loot more ways to enjoy WW/E program 9old or new) than there used to be. and fact is many of the fans Austin brought in are still around in one form or the other. Even if they are not watching like they used to (because there favorites are now all but gone).
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