Stuff Jim Cornette Hates: Part 3

[Bob Schlapowitz]

Dear Mr. Cornette,

If you hate the Wrestling BUSINESS so much, then do us a favor and get out of it.

Sincerely,
Bob Schlapowitz

[Ben Wyatt]

Jul 11, 2009 20:34:12 GMT -5 Bob Schlapowitz said:

Dear Mr. Cornette,

If you hate the Wrestling BUSINESS so much, then do us a favor and get out of it.

Sincerely,
Bob Schlapowitz

Seconded.

Look, I respect Cornette and his career as one of the better heel managers and a pretty good creative mind. But EVERYTHING he says now is an angry rant

[Lenny: Smooth like Keith Stone]

Often times I do agree with Cornette, but this is probably the first time I read one of his rants and just completely disagreed with just about everything.

Wrestling these days is in fact about characters. Characters and stories. Perhaps back in the 70's it was nothing more than Guy A vs Guy B in a wrestling match to see who is better. But the business has moved on, and it is now about characters and stories as well. Even in a promotion like ROH where the wrestling is clearly the focal point, even they have characters and storylines to help sell the wrestling.

I don't see a problem with the term "rest hold". It is a chance for the guy applying it to stop for a second and catch his breath, and I don't see any shame in saying that the guy stopped for a minute to rest. Even in hardcore kayfabe, a man applying a headlock clearly has a chance to catch his breath. In kayfabe the man receiving the headlock is in great pain and not resting. Sure if Dick Murdock applied a rest hold on me, I would not find it restful. But Murdock would. And in such an athletic display such as wrestling, there's nothing wrong with acknowledging a wrestler running out of stamina and needing to stop for a minute.

As for the whole "dressing room vs locker room" and "in-the-back vs backstage", what can I say -- wrestling isn't "real" anymore. I like to lose myself and *pretend* it's real, since I'm a mark just like anyone. But I (like everyone else) know that it's actually just a show.

[H-Fist]

Context. It seems like Cornette has too much, and the folks in this thread have too little.

I have a question: Which of the following, in the context of a WWE wrestler giving an interview to mainstream media, is more insulting to the intelligence of wrestling fans?

A) "One thing people don't realize is we film episodic television. We're the first to say that what we do is entertainment and it's for the sake of the fans."

B) "My goal going into this business still hasn't changed, and that's to expand this business...f your goal is to just win a championship, then once that happens, you might have a lull where you don't know what to do next. I just want to let people know that we have the greatest show on Earth."

B merely implies that wrestling is fixed without actually saying it. In so doing, the wrestler puts himself over as a competitor with career goals (like Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods or LeBron) beyond a 3-count. He puts over the company as a business, a business model, and as entertainment. It puts over the fans by complimenting them: they love the show and are devoted. The wrestlers owe their livelihood to the fans.

A, on the other hand, insults the fans. Of course we're a bunch of phoneys, but it's okay because our fans are in on that part of the joke. If only they knew how hard it was memorizing the script! That's why they should respect us: we act on live TV in a sports-oriented medium.

Both of those quotes are taken directly from an interview John Cena gave ESPN.com this past week. Why does Cena have to use A? B acknowledges implicitly all of what he said directly in A, but carries none of the condescension. A tells the world that everything is fake. In fact, it minimizes the physical effort the talent puts in. B, on the other hand, makes the understood-to-be-worked aspects of the business seem like real accomplishments that advance one's career goals.

In B, Cena does a great job as a company ambassador and as a top babyface giving both fans and non-fans a reason to care about him as a person and, thus, as a performer on TV. He is an athlete for the right reasons, so maybe I'll give him a chance. So he is drawing on the "John Cena (R)" as an extension of John Cena nature of his character to bring the two in line.

I want the WWE to treat its shows and commercials as if it is a fighting sport. From the opening credits to the closing sign-off, it has to be "real" to work.

I want the performers to use the mainstream media to grow the audience. You don't do that by insulting your fans as people who know it's fake, but watch anyway. You don't do that by giving away everything in the business. You do that by gearing the marketing towards blurring the line between real and kayfabe, not erasing it. When fans and observers can't tell the difference between the well-spoken, career-oriented John Cena and the explosive, charismatic, magnetic John Cena they see on TV, then he can grow his fan base. When fans can't tell the difference between the outspoken, preachy, tattooed kid from Chicago who made it to the show and the self-righteous, opportunistic fighter named Punk who stands proudly in the ring, then he can count on people wanting to see his ass kicked.

Again, I'm not talking about kayfabing the world about wrestling being a real sport, or the animosity between good guys and bad guys being legit. I'm not saying that there can't be successful gimmick wrestlers and over-the-top storylines and situations. But what I am saying is that making the blurry connection creates a human interest story. And if you've ever seen a local news broadcast, you know that human interest stories draw casual viewership. It's a different approach to a stagnating business.

[HMARK Center]

Jul 11, 2009 19:14:34 GMT -5 @lesscra said:

I think I get the first thing he says. It's not gimmicks vs. characters, it's gimmicks that are pure gimmicks vs. gimmicks that stem from within. I believe there to be a difference, although I do believe that getting over is more difficult now. Fans are smarter. There's more information out there.

Excellent point; a weird gimmick has much more honesty to it when it stems from within for a guy. If somebody was raised as a street punk, for example, they'd play a gimmick that way MUCH more effectively than somebody who wasn't.

Doesn't mean Ted DiBiase had to be a legitimate millionaire in real life, as there are exceptions to every rule (and truly exceptional performers, like DiBiase, could make almost anything work), but honesty is a huge part of getting the audience to suspend their disbelief.

We all know kayfabe isn't coming back, and Cornette goes to some extremes in his opinions in that regard, but some of the basic, small-detail tenants of keeping things "honest" help the shows immeasurably. You don't need to go insane to do that and have heels and faces never hang out together in public, but you can certainly present yourself in a somewhat more legitimate way through some minor methods that, cumulatively, have a greater impact.

[Triple Kelly]

Jul 11, 2009 20:36:45 GMT -5 Ben Wyatt said:

Jul 11, 2009 20:34:12 GMT -5 Bob Schlapowitz said:

Dear Mr. Cornette,

If you hate the Wrestling BUSINESS so much, then do us a favor and get out of it.

Sincerely,
Bob Schlapowitz

Seconded.

Look, I respect Cornette and his career as one of the better heel managers and a pretty good creative mind. But EVERYTHING he says now is an angry rant

Thirded. One of the best heel managers ever needs to SHUT UP and live in the 21st century. He used to go on and on about how much he hated Russo and how Russo ruins every promotion he steps foot in. Now he's stopped...wonder why...

[Kash Flagg]

Jul 11, 2009 20:34:12 GMT -5 Bob Schlapowitz said:

Dear Mr. Cornette,

If you hate the Wrestling BUSINESS so much, then do us a favor and get out of it.

Sincerely,
Bob Schlapowitz

Then a shitload of people here need to just delete their accounts, because most of us are just as bad and angry and bash wrestling as much as Cornette does.

[cruiserfan]

The difference is Cornette knows what he's talking about.

Is he bitter? Yes. Is he right? Yes. Does it make any difference to the direction of the business? No.

[Kash Flagg]

Jul 12, 2009 16:29:03 GMT -5 cruiserfan said:

The difference is Cornette knows what he's talking about.

Is he bitter? Yes. Is he right? Yes. Does it make any difference to the direction of the business? No.

I agree with this fine person.

[The_Punisher]

Cornette also hates puppies and kittens. As a matter of fact he has a habit of kicking dogs.

[Deleted]

The kayfabe argument is a bit moot. Kayfabe changed; its not about faces and heels being seen together in cars anymore but people who may or may not like each other and, because of that, influencing the politics that go behind the scenes. The new kayfabe are things like "Triple H held Chris Jericho down" or "Hmm, Angle jumped really, really quickly to TNA after being released. Maybe Vince and Jarret are working together?" It's funny but now that we know that it's all "fake", we constantly look for things that are real. The shoot behind the scenes is the most fascinating thing for many people.

[The_Punisher]

Even in Cornette's time people still thought wrestling was fake. No amount of bar fighting, no amount of Harley Race torturing guys with sandpaper, no amount of not traveling together was going to change that.

Vince openly admitting the business is a work was a great thing.

People better understand it now.

[Jay Peas 42]

Yeah, about 55% of this article are internal complaints about worker culture, the other 45% Granpa Simpson talk. The 5% that is targeted to the marks is that Wrestler Gimmicks should be developed to reflect some part of their persona rather than as a part in a play. Which is probably correct. I think Goldust, is mostly Dustin Runnels going "If I wanted to Gay bait someone, what would I do?" as opposed to Shannon Moore's odd performance a couple years ago. You can have a bizzare alter ego locked up in your head.

[kidmuscle]

Jul 12, 2009 17:31:10 GMT -5 The_Punisher said:

Even in Cornette's time people still thought wrestling was fake. No amount of bar fighting, no amount of Harley Race torturing guys with sandpaper, no amount of not traveling together was going to change that.

Vince openly admitting the business is a work was a great thing.

People better understand it now.

That's how I feel, letting people "in on the act", there's nothing really wrong with it. Power Rangers aren't power rangers in real life. Kozlov isn't an evil commie russian, etc. etc. etc.

It's the rubes who defend it as "A sport" or that "it's still real to me dammit!", that make wrestling fans look bad.

We know it's fake, we know it's a show, it's escapism.

The new kayfabe is in the dirtsheets and rumor spreading.

[Mayhem]

Thanks for posting. I always find Cornette's commentary to be very interesting.

I feel sorry for him, in a sense, since his views are treated as random rants from an old timer that doesn't 'get it' anymore. I think that, in the middle of all this so-called bitterness, he has a lot of good points. Maybe he's not perfect, but no one is. Still, I'd rather have more people like Jim Cornette, that really possess a true passion for pro wrestling, than all of the Johnny-come-lately writers that have played such a role in fouling things up.

[The_Punisher]

Jul 12, 2009 20:56:48 GMT -5 Mayhem said:

the Johnny-come-lately writers that have played such a role in fouling things up.

Are you referring to just Gerwertz and Russo or are you lumping all writers into this?

[parder]

I don't think I'd go as far as Cornette in what he says about wrestlers as characters, but there is an element of truth to what he is saying.

I think his writing style might be a bit deliberately rhetorical to provoke a reaction, which results in him understating how much wrestling is fundamentally about storytelling, both inside and outside of the ring. Good storytelling that people want to watch needs logic in terms of what it makes sense for various characters to do in a given situation. In other words, something that you can buy into. So when Cornette says:

No one stops to realize that even if you know wrestling is a work and how it's done, performing and presenting it like a shoot makes it a better show and a better-quality product.

He's definitely got a point in my opinion.

However, I felt that there was too much going on about how more people actually knowing that pro wrestling is just worked entertainment show just gives people a reason to criticise it. But if the industry itself is being honest about what it is to the public, then isn't the problem more with those critics who don't get it, than with the wrestling promotions?

Nevertheless, the point at the end of the piece about what is driving the trend towards pro wrestling increasingly being a product solely watched for FREE on TV, with MMA (and UFC in particular) being a product that more and more people want to PAY to see is very telling. Live gates/PPV buyrates vs. TV ratings definitely bear this out, and it's something the industry needs to reflect on more.

[The_Punisher]

I'll go right out and say that UFC is a work.

And should that be widespread what then?

[Mayhem]

Jul 12, 2009 21:15:47 GMT -5 The_Punisher said:

Jul 12, 2009 20:56:48 GMT -5 Mayhem said:

the Johnny-come-lately writers that have played such a role in fouling things up.

Are you referring to just Gerwertz and Russo or are you lumping all writers into this?

It's probably not wise to lump them all in together. There may be one or two good ones that I am not familair with.

But, as far as my two cents goes, pro wrestling would be in better shape with more people like Cornette involved in the booking/writing/whatever you want to call it. From different things I've read and viewed, it appears that the vets (like Anderson, for example) have less say than these writers and I feel they're moving farther away from what brought them to the dance, so to speak. If they valued the old timers a bit more, they might realize that they still have some pretty decent ideas.

[eJm]

Jul 12, 2009 15:40:35 GMT -5 Kash Flagg said:

Jul 11, 2009 20:34:12 GMT -5 Bob Schlapowitz said:

Dear Mr. Cornette,

If you hate the Wrestling BUSINESS so much, then do us a favor and get out of it.

Sincerely,
Bob Schlapowitz

Then a s***load of people here need to just delete their accounts, because most of us are just as bad and angry and bash wrestling as much as Cornette does.

And honestly if Jim Cornette can't be able to rant about the business that he was a part of for so long, then none of us here in any way, shape or form can.