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Post by toddpolt on Dec 19, 2009 14:15:17 GMT -5
People get confused with the term Anti-Hero anymore. They think its a guy/gal just beating the bloody crap out of someone or kill them. Not necessarily.
The term literally means a hero that isn't a hero at all, yet such framed in a story that you back them up regardless of their lack of morals, ethics, love for human life, whatever. A rule breaker perhaps, but not necessarily an obligation.
Which is why despite sounding like slam dunk choices, I wouldn't pick Batman or Wolverine. At this rate, they are the "heroes" that we agree with their rough gritty methods. No reader/viewer despises them personally.
Which is why I vote John Constantine from Hellblazer. A charming, funny street (wannabe) wizard....and also real bad guy basically. Let's see, his nonsense bravado in a botched exorcism got his rock band mates killed and sent an innocent girl down to hell. He put a deadly curse on his father. Dug up (literally) his ancestor and buried him again. His enemies down "there" took his sister down back with them.
If you're a buddy/ally of his, either you're dead or will be because he will betray them to save his own skin. I lost count after two dozen. At least.
That said, he's had a remarkable lifespan. Over twenty something years in his own title over at Vertigo, their first title (right?) and a real reliable benchpress in that catalogue. I guess people like that such a villain is in that magical-filled gray world where black and white doesn't exist....he's some ways a hero. A straight shooter, if deadly.
And that he's a clever son of a gun. That movie botched it, but the legendary "Dangerous Habits" storyline where he tricks the Devil to not just drink holy water (awesome enough), but politicked him and the other Lords of Hell against each other to get his terminal lung cancer removed....classic. No wonder Doctor Strange in another comic book universe is afraid of him.
Not bad for a character created originally as a throwaway fanboy reference to Sting. Yes the singer.
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Post by The Tank on Dec 19, 2009 14:19:45 GMT -5
Deadpool.
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Post by Kroot bringing Justice on Dec 19, 2009 14:26:37 GMT -5
Joe Kelly Deadpool yes. Cable/Deadpool no seeing how he was making the transition to hero. Current Deadpool......absolutely not seeing how he regressed all the way back to base 1.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2009 14:30:03 GMT -5
The Punisher
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 19, 2009 15:04:03 GMT -5
Honestly, I think the greatest anti-hero of all time in comics is Iron Man. The reason being that they've done such a good job of portraying him as a hero since his inception that most people are jaded enough to not even notice what a huge asshole he is. Tony Stark is selfish, arrogant, and will throw anyone under the bus if he thinks it serves a purpose that he deems worthy.
Now, if we're talking greatest blatant anti-heroes, I'd go with Lobo and Deadpool.
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Post by delurked on Dec 19, 2009 15:22:29 GMT -5
Spider-Man
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Post by Drink Up Me Cider on Dec 19, 2009 15:29:47 GMT -5
Selling your soul and the love of your life for your eighty year old gran, and her wheat cakes? Yea I'll agree with the anti-hero thing...except cross out the hero part. On a more serious note I'd say The Incredible Hulk.
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Post by Lupin the Third on Dec 19, 2009 15:35:19 GMT -5
Agreed. This man is the term anti-hero. He loses his family, loses faith in the justice system, so he deals out justice his way: killing the wicked. Also, I would say Rorschach.
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Ass Dan
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Post by Ass Dan on Dec 19, 2009 15:47:04 GMT -5
Howard the Duck.
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 19, 2009 15:55:52 GMT -5
Agreed. This man is the term anti-hero. He loses his family, loses faith in the justice system, so he deals out justice his way: killing the wicked. Also, I would say Rorschach. Was waiting for someone to say it. ;D
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 19, 2009 15:58:07 GMT -5
Agreed. This man is the term anti-hero. He loses his family, loses faith in the justice system, so he deals out justice his way: killing the wicked. Also, I would say Rorschach. Was waiting for someone to say it. ;D I've never actually seen Rorschach as an anti-hero, to be honest. In any other setting he would be, but in the world Watchmen is set in, he's basically the only real hero left, cynical and violent as he may be. The rest of them are either dead or a bunch of sellouts.
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Post by Chinny Reckon on Dec 19, 2009 16:02:52 GMT -5
Cassidy from "Preacher"
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Dec 19, 2009 16:07:15 GMT -5
A ten year old I babysit is convinced that Batman is a "bad guy". Nothing I tell him will convince him otherwise.
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 19, 2009 16:09:55 GMT -5
Was waiting for someone to say it. ;D I've never actually seen Rorschach as an anti-hero, to be honest. In any other setting he would be, but in the world Watchmen is set in, he's basically the only real hero left, cynical and violent as he may be. The rest of them are either dead or a bunch of sellouts. But that's just it...he's NOT a hero any more either. No "hero" would do the things he does. He's lost his goddamn mind, and he's gone from merely tying thugs up for the police, like the Golden Age Batman, to brutalizing and killing them, a precedent that led to Miller's own Dark Knight Returns and Marvel taking Frank Castle to that next step and making HIM dark as hell. Rorschach is kind of where the truly DARK characters all spawned from, in a way. The fact that a lot of people think of Rorschach as the hero of Watchmen is something that Moore has said really bothers him, since he went out of his way to make sure Rorschach was as ugly, smelly, psychotic and unlikable as possible. I would say the Comedian is also an anti-hero in this book, but he's not as big of one as Rorschach is.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 19, 2009 16:13:45 GMT -5
I've never actually seen Rorschach as an anti-hero, to be honest. In any other setting he would be, but in the world Watchmen is set in, he's basically the only real hero left, cynical and violent as he may be. The rest of them are either dead or a bunch of sellouts. But that's just it...he's NOT a hero any more either. No "hero" would do the things he does. He's lost his goddamn mind, and he's gone from merely tying thugs up for the police, like the Golden Age Batman, to brutalizing and killing them, a precedent that led to Miller's own Dark Knight Returns and Marvel taking Frank Castle to that next step and making HIM dark as hell. Rorschach is kind of where the truly DARK characters all spawned from, in a way. The fact that a lot of people think of Rorschach as the hero of Watchmen is something that Moore has said really bothers him, since he went out of his way to make sure Rorschach was as ugly, smelly, psychotic and unlikable as possible. I would say the Comedian is also an anti-hero in this book, but he's not as big of one as Rorschach is. That's exactly why Alan Moore is a bit of an idiot. Who did he want readers to get behind if not Rorschach? People just latched onto the character who was a victim of all his friends selling out.
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 19, 2009 16:20:53 GMT -5
But that's just it...he's NOT a hero any more either. No "hero" would do the things he does. He's lost his goddamn mind, and he's gone from merely tying thugs up for the police, like the Golden Age Batman, to brutalizing and killing them, a precedent that led to Miller's own Dark Knight Returns and Marvel taking Frank Castle to that next step and making HIM dark as hell. Rorschach is kind of where the truly DARK characters all spawned from, in a way. The fact that a lot of people think of Rorschach as the hero of Watchmen is something that Moore has said really bothers him, since he went out of his way to make sure Rorschach was as ugly, smelly, psychotic and unlikable as possible. I would say the Comedian is also an anti-hero in this book, but he's not as big of one as Rorschach is. That's exactly why Alan Moore is a bit of an idiot. Who did he want readers to get behind if not Rorschach? People just latched onto the character who was a victim of all his friends selling out. Good point. Maybe Nite Owl? He WAS the flabby everyman that people could relate to. Personally, the reason I dig Rorschach is that he seems to be the only one (well, him and the Comedian) that's interested in DOING something about what's going on in the world. Manhattan is lost in his own world of woe and introspection, Nite Owl gave up, Silk Spectre is more or less done, and Ozymandias has retired to milk his legacy. This leaves Comedian (working for the government) and Rorschach (the outlaw who will NOT stop) as the last two bitter, angry "heros" left to deal with an increasingly volatile problem. After Comedian is killed, all that's left is Rorschach. So yeah...I get what you're saying. I just don't think we're meant to think of Rorschach as the hero of the tale. I think the point was that Nite Owl and Spectre and Manhattan actually end up being more heroic by going along with Ozymandias, than Rorschach ended up being by trying to expose him.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 19, 2009 16:25:45 GMT -5
That's exactly why Alan Moore is a bit of an idiot. Who did he want readers to get behind if not Rorschach? People just latched onto the character who was a victim of all his friends selling out. Good point. Maybe Nite Owl? He WAS the flabby everyman that people could relate to. Personally, the reason I dig Rorschach is that he seems to be the only one (well, him and the Comedian) that's interested in DOING something about what's going on in the world. Manhattan is lost in his own world of woe and introspection, Nite Owl gave up, Silk Spectre is more or less done, and Ozymandias has retired to milk his legacy. This leaves Comedian (working for the government) and Rorschach (the outlaw who will NOT stop) as the last two bitter, angry "heros" left to deal with an increasingly volatile problem. After Comedian is killed, all that's left is Rorschach. So yeah...I get what you're saying. I just don't think we're meant to think of Rorschach as the hero of the tale. I think the point was that Nite Owl and Spectre and Manhattan actually end up being more heroic by going along with Ozymandias, than Rorschach ended up being by trying to expose him. He's the main hero when it comes to the marketing of Watchmen, apparently.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 19, 2009 16:34:35 GMT -5
That's exactly why Alan Moore is a bit of an idiot. Who did he want readers to get behind if not Rorschach? People just latched onto the character who was a victim of all his friends selling out. Good point. Maybe Nite Owl? He WAS the flabby everyman that people could relate to. Personally, the reason I dig Rorschach is that he seems to be the only one (well, him and the Comedian) that's interested in DOING something about what's going on in the world. Manhattan is lost in his own world of woe and introspection, Nite Owl gave up, Silk Spectre is more or less done, and Ozymandias has retired to milk his legacy. This leaves Comedian (working for the government) and Rorschach (the outlaw who will NOT stop) as the last two bitter, angry "heros" left to deal with an increasingly volatile problem. After Comedian is killed, all that's left is Rorschach. So yeah...I get what you're saying. I just don't think we're meant to think of Rorschach as the hero of the tale. I think the point was that Nite Owl and Spectre and Manhattan actually end up being more heroic by going along with Ozymandias, than Rorschach ended up being by trying to expose him. That's likely the conundrum when it comes to the way people see the characters and the story. In Moore's mind, it was a story about how being a hero doesn't always mean steering clear of controversy. To him, Ozymandias was the hero for doing what was necessary to create worldwide peace and harmony. The problem is that many people are going to side with the character who who kills rapists and pedophiles and is standing up against mass genocide.
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Post by tap on Dec 19, 2009 16:36:46 GMT -5
Who did he want readers to get behind if not Rorschach? No one. You're not really supposed to identify with someone because there are no purely "good" alternatives. That's the point. If you identify with Ozymandias, you implicitly support genocide. If you identify with Rorschach, murder. The Comedian, rape. Nite Owl, resignation. Dr. Manhattan, detachment. Silk Spectre... hmm. Well, her place within the narrative isn't a strong one anyway, but there's probably some negative, alienating attribute there. What Moore's point with Watchmen seems to be is "We shouldn't be supporting any of these people. At all. And I will show you the ugly underside to everything that is heroic found in Superman, Batman, etc." There are no absolutes in that universe. Not even any kind of moral relativism either. And that so many superheroes have turned dark, deep, and psychological, to the point that they border on socio/psychopathy (if they aren't already), as a result of Watchmen kind of proves Moore to be right, in a way. My take anyway.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 19, 2009 16:42:18 GMT -5
Who did he want readers to get behind if not Rorschach? No one. You're not really supposed to identify with someone because there are no purely "good" alternatives. That's the point. If you identify with Ozymandias, you implicitly support genocide. If you identify with Rorschach, murder. The Comedian, rape. Nite Owl, resignation. Dr. Manhattan, detachment. Silk Spectre... hmm. Well, her place within the narrative isn't a strong one anyway, but there's probably some negative, alienating attribute there. What Moore's point with Watchmen seems to be is "We shouldn't be supporting any of these people. At all. And I will show you the ugly underside to everything that is heroic found in Superman, Batman, etc." There are no absolutes in that universe. Not even any kind of moral relativism either. And that so many superheroes have turned dark, deep, and psychological, to the point that they border on socio/psychopathy (if they aren't already), as a result of Watchmen kind of proves Moore to be right, in a way. My take anyway. That's why it isn't fair of him to get upset that people liked Rorschach. I understand what he wanted to show, but a story in which there isn't a single character for the reader/viewer to attach to doesn't work. People related to Rorschach because they had to settle on someone, otherwise there's no point to reading.
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