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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Dec 23, 2009 15:31:03 GMT -5
Debate?
Like comparing Pedro Martinez or Sandy Koufax to Nolan Ryan or Tom Glavine. High peak but the back end wasn't great or even there. Mike Bossy or Bobby Orr vs Wayne Gretzky or Mark Messier. Barry Sanders compared to Emmit Smith. Can't think of a basketball one
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Dec 23, 2009 15:35:33 GMT -5
But Greg Maddux had both a great peak and a long carrer.
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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Dec 23, 2009 15:38:13 GMT -5
But Greg Maddux had both a great peak and a long carrer. But did he dominated like a Pedro Gibson or Sandy? Also he wasn't a flashy power strikeout pitcher. Also he was great and had a very good after his prime which is the point
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Dec 23, 2009 15:41:51 GMT -5
I'd call winning the Cy Young four consecutive years, and going 19-2 with a 1.63 ERA, 0.811 WHIP, only 23 BB's compare to 181 K's and a 7.8 K/9 ratio in 1995 pretty damn dominating.
Not to mention 1994 where he was 16-6 with a 1.56 ERA, and a 0.896 WHIP.
He also had 10 GC's during both these years. He had a span of 7 seasons (92-98) where his highest ERA was 2.72.
Greg Maddux is the s***, I'm telling ya.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 23, 2009 15:42:12 GMT -5
What's really important is how healthy a player can stay during and after they peak. Pedro in particular's had a long history of injuries after his 1999/2000 campaigns.
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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Dec 23, 2009 15:47:49 GMT -5
I'd call winning the Cy Young four consecutive years, and going 19-2 with a 1.63 ERA, 0.811 WHIP, only 23 BB's compare to 181 K's and a 7.8 K/9 ratio in 1995 pretty damn dominating. Not to mention 1994 where he was 16-6 with a 1.56 ERA, and a 0.896 WHIP. He also had 10 GC's during both these years. He had a span of 7 seasons (92-98) where his highest ERA was 2.72. Greg Maddux is the s***, I'm telling ya. Listen I love Maddux but the example wasn't great but you get the idea.
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biafra
El Dandy
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Posts: 7,617
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Post by biafra on Dec 23, 2009 15:50:25 GMT -5
Maddox was so good that if he had played in the early days of baseball people would be winning The Greg Maddox Award.
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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Dec 23, 2009 15:56:13 GMT -5
I changed it to Tom Glavine is that better?
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 23, 2009 15:57:11 GMT -5
Maddux was so good that, if he was around when baseball was being invented, we wouldn't have pitchers. We'd have Madduxes.
Seriously though, being a long-term good player is better than being a great player for a season or two. One or two good years rarely get lasting recognition, players who are consistently good for a dozen, do.
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biafra
El Dandy
Biafra Who?
Posts: 7,617
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Post by biafra on Dec 23, 2009 16:01:29 GMT -5
I changed it to Tom Glavine is that better? No. Change it to Steve Avery. CHANGE IT!
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Dec 23, 2009 16:28:10 GMT -5
Maddox was so good that if he had played in the early days of baseball people would be winning The Greg Maddox Award. Koufax was so dominant that if he wouldn't have injured his left arm, people would be winning the Koufax Award. They'd have to rename it. I think with Koufax his lack of longevity just adds to his mystique. If the guy wouldn't have had to retire due to injury, a shitload of pitching records would belong to him. Koufax's last 2 seasons both played in a lot of pain, with doctors saying his arm wouldn't be able to take it 1965 - 26 wins 2.04 E.R.A. 382 strikeouts and over 330 innings pitched. 1966 - 27 wins 1.73 E.R.A. 317 strikeouts and over 320 innings pitched.
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Dec 24, 2009 2:38:44 GMT -5
Hey Koufax was a bad ass, for sure.
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EvilMasterBetty, Esq.
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Post by EvilMasterBetty, Esq. on Dec 24, 2009 2:57:07 GMT -5
Are you talking HOF-worthy type stuff, or just how players are remembered? In terms of rememberance, I think to a fanbase peak could be more important but to the sport as a whole generally longevity plays a bigger part. For example, I'll always remember what Cole Hamels did in 07-08, even if he regresses to an average pitcher and isn't remembered for the rest of time.
But for HOF, longevity doesn't carry as much weight as having a great peak IMO. If you look at a lot of the guys who are borderline HOFers, many are guys who played many years and were pretty good, but never had that "wow" couple of years to put them over. But someone like Koufax is in the HOF even though his career was cut short just because of how dominant he was.
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Cranjis McBasketball☝🏻
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball☝🏻 on Dec 24, 2009 3:01:01 GMT -5
Depends on how you look at it. Bobby Orr is considered one of the greatest players ever to play the game, but had a rather short career.
Wayne Gretzky, greatest player ever, had 10 years of pure dominance that will never be seen again, 5 years as a top tier player and 5 as an average Joe (albeit the greatest ever).
Blaine Lacher, had a stellar half season in goal for the Bruins. Then he was done and cutting grass at a golf course. Having blown all his pro earnings.
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Post by angryfan on Dec 24, 2009 8:48:40 GMT -5
Honestly, in terms of history, the longevity matters. Maddux was brought up, with his mid-90's dominance of the NL being the example, but that's not what history will remember the most. They'll remember that for damn near twenty years, he won at least ten games, generally 15 or more, every single year. By itslelf that's not a world-beater statistic, but it's guaranteed performance over the lifetime of a career.
Tony Gwynn had that. He didn't hit .370 every year, but what you got was someone who you could pencil in more or less knowing what the end result would be. To me that speaks far more than "for two years, no one was better".
I'll give two examples, team mates who fit the "consistancy vs peak" criteria.
In the early 1940's, the Brooklyn Dodgers had a pair of outfielders named Joe "Ducky" Medwick and Pete Reiser.
Medwick was prolific throughout his career, and wound up in the hall of fame. Reiser, an absolute savant and fearless outfielder with crazy power both right and left handed, tended to go full speed in persuit of fly balls resulting in many broken bones, several skull fractures, and at least one case of temporary paralysis. Reiser had a peak that was, by the standards of the day and even still, monstrous, but is a name many do not know today because he wasn't around long enough.
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