Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,294
|
Post by Fade on Dec 23, 2009 0:13:03 GMT -5
Badly executed or not, if you're put in a submission hold you don't stay in it for hours on end before finally tapping out. You tap early to save your body from possible injury. That's realistic. How in the world could Cena's STF possibly injure or even inflict serious discomfort on anyone? Trust me. Puts me in serious discomfort every time I watch it. |
|
SAJ Forth
Wade Wilson
Jamaican WCF Crazy!
Half Man-Half Amazing
Posts: 27,214
|
Post by SAJ Forth on Dec 23, 2009 0:16:36 GMT -5
It was a good match, but I don't like the finish.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lionheart on Dec 23, 2009 0:17:18 GMT -5
How in the world could Cena's STF possibly injure or even inflict serious discomfort on anyone? Trust me. Puts me in serious discomfort every time I watch it. I stand corrected.  |
|
SAJ Forth
Wade Wilson
Jamaican WCF Crazy!
Half Man-Half Amazing
Posts: 27,214
|
Post by SAJ Forth on Dec 23, 2009 0:21:25 GMT -5
Trust me. Puts me in serious discomfort every time I watch it. I stand corrected. It looks painful. |
|
H-Fist
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,485
|
Post by H-Fist on Dec 23, 2009 0:29:10 GMT -5
In response to Cactus Matt and Liquid Stryk Dizzle:
It isn't a matter of realism. Wrestling isn't about being realistic. It's about being naturalistic. If it was supposed to be realistic, no one would ever do a flip off the top rope because he could do a simple splash or back senton and have equal effect with greater accuracy.
I'll agree that being trapped in an MMA-style submission such as a juji gatame will result in an almost immediate submission. Pro wrestling, however, has a long tradition of using holds that wear and pressure rather than rip and tear. A hammerlock has been a shoot submission for a century, since the days of Farmer Burns. But in pro wrestling, a wrestler who tapped in a matter of seconds to a hammerlock would become a laughing stock.
In shoot fighting, the suspense or excitement comes from not knowing if and when the fighter will attempt the hold, and then, once he makes the attempt, whether or not he will be able to apply it with full force. In professional wrestling, on the other hand, the nature of in-ring psychology requires that an audience be familiar with a wrestler's move set so that they can be conditioned to react in certain ways (a wrestler known for a certain top rope move can gain heel heat by ascending to the top and...jumping down and punching his opponent instead). Thus, the submission hold must be applied and then held for a long enough period of time that it can become visually familiar. Thus, the suspense of if/when he will attempt the move is no longer a priority. Rather, the move itself is part of the underlying story of anticipation and suspense. The emotional build of the match requires, then, a new piece of suspense such that a match can reach a climax. This climax can be found through the application of a submission hold and the subsequent struggle of the captured man to escape, reverse, force a rope break, or at least hold out as long as he can.
Put more simply, the goal of an MMA fighter is to win. The goal of a professional wrestler is to build drama. As such, well-known MMA holds such as the gogoplata and juji gatame are (in my opinion) detrimental when used in wrestling because, unlike in MMA, wrestlers attempt the same type of dramatic build used with pro wrestling submissions. Many fans know that it's BS to use them in such a way, and thus they are drawn out of the suspension of disbelief. Holds such as the Boston Crab or Camel Clutch or Sharpshooter are much more able to work in pro wrestling psychology. First, they allow the fans/camera to see the captured wrestler's face. Second, they allow more/less suspense and more/less fight-to-escape/survive time based on the prior events of the match (a Boston Crab is "more effective" (--> speedier tapout) when it follows working over the lower back). Third, they are easy to recognize as they are being applied.
John Cena's STS ought to work the same way. It is called an STF by WWE, but he doesn't wrench on the chin such that the victim's neck, back and knee are all engaged. He locks his hands beneath the chin, making it more of a sleeper. Thus, the opponent should be in a position to fight the spinal stretch of the hold less and less over time as the sleeper aspect drives him closer and closer to passing out. This move, like most any other used in professional wrestling, is NOT a hold designed for an immediate submission (with an alternate solution being a dislocated joint or torn tendon). Rather, a submission hold in professional wrestling is intended to capitalize on the wrestler's previous focus in the match (backbreakers before a crab; shinbreakers and chop blocks before a figure-4 leglock; targeting the ribcage before a sleeper/legal semi-choke; etc.).
In terms of pro wrestling, 2-second tapouts are NOT realistic. If people want to watch pretend MMA, then there would be a weekly World MMA Federation tv show, and the WMF would be in court being sued over their name by the World Monument Fund. The sport of pro wrestling changes and will continue to change as the influences change, as well. But allowing too much MMA influence absolutely murders the entire notion of pro wrestling as storytelling, as a psychologically fulfilling drama, and as a form of entertainment that is primarily cathartic rather than agonistic.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lionheart on Dec 23, 2009 1:49:20 GMT -5
Brilliant post, H-Fist.
|
|
Big L
Grimlock
Posts: 13,883
|
Post by Big L on Dec 23, 2009 15:35:17 GMT -5
Ya know, now that you mention it...if they were gonna put the title on someone "new", they really should have kept going with the Swagger undefeated thing. this |
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,304 
|
Post by The Ichi on Dec 23, 2009 15:39:39 GMT -5
I really dug the ending to this match actually. Swagger goes for his...whatever-it's-called splash, misses and gets caught in the STFU. I liked the fact that the match looked like it was over as soon as Cena hit the FKS and Swagger stood up, but managed to keep fighting too.
|
|
CMWaters
Ozymandius
Rolled a Seven, Beat the Ads.
Bald and busy
Posts: 63,089
|
Post by CMWaters on Dec 23, 2009 15:40:29 GMT -5
Now the question I have:
Which was the better Cena/Swagger match: this past Monday or the one from the Draft show earlier this year when Cena was World Champ and Swagger was ECW Champ?
|
|
|
|
Post by Lionheart on Dec 23, 2009 16:23:48 GMT -5
I really dug the ending to this match actually. Swagger goes for his...whatever-it's-called splash, misses and gets caught in the STFU. I liked the fact that the match looked like it was over as soon as Cena hit the FKS and Swagger stood up, but managed to keep fighting too. Has the FKS ever ended a match? |
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,304
|
Post by The Ichi on Dec 23, 2009 17:05:22 GMT -5
I really dug the ending to this match actually. Swagger goes for his...whatever-it's-called splash, misses and gets caught in the STFU. I liked the fact that the match looked like it was over as soon as Cena hit the FKS and Swagger stood up, but managed to keep fighting too. Has the FKS ever ended a match? The FKS-AA combo has. |
|
