Lucha promotions like CMLL, IWRG and AAA are available in basic cable (as opposed to HDNet or PPV). You don't even have to buy lucha dvds to be exposed to them. Lucha shows outdraw any non WWE and legend shows on a regular basis, especially in markets such as Texas, California and others. I'd say they have a bigger market than the indy scene. Do your research.
You don't need to roll your eyes when I didn't disagree with you, and nor did I make any points that aren't valid. You also shouldn't tell me to "do research" when my lack of clarity, not knowledge, is at fault. Asking someone for clarity in his argument is generally more productive than insulting him. I attempted to provide an explanation of why a
specific magazine from a
specific place with a
specific interest would put out a list such as the one in question. I tried to make it a rather simple explanation, but I can see re-reading it that I made leaps rather than took steps in phrasing my statements. For that I apologize, but for nothing else.
Univision and Telemundo are on free TV in Chicago, so I could watch this past week's Raw en espanol for free on Sunday afternoon if I so choose. I'm well aware of how big lucha libre is in certain parts of the U.S. (not coincidentally, those with high percentages of Latinos and/or Spanish-speakers in the population) and, obviously, how influential it has been in the development of the similar styles seen in Dragon Gate and from countless high-fliers and promotions from Reseda to Philly to Blackpool. Go back to the mid 80s, and for every Terry Funk appearance in AJPW, there was probably one by Mil Mascaras, too. But to more or less call me an idiot for considering border states and specific centralized ethnic populations [albeit growing ones] as somewhat separate from a discussion of
mainstream American wrestling audiences, let alone the specialized British magazine whose list is in question, is an intellectually dishonest approach on your part. That is, the larger mainstream-indie discussions that go on (with much of this interaction occuring via the internet, where message boards and podcasts dominate) does not have much interest in Mexican professional wrestling compared to other options. There certainly is considerable fan overlap between WWE and lucha libre. But as far as the "smart mark" "IWC" arenas go, there is noticeably little discussion of the major happenings in the lucha libre big leagues, despite the involvement of popular or at least well-known American performers.
There certainly are more people in the United States who watch a major Mexican promotion on TV on a weekly basis than there are people who watch independent wrestling on TV or buy a DVD. I didn't mean to insinuate a contrary position. Rather, I pointed out that the people who seek out Powerslam and, the tautology would predict, the people who write for Powerslam likely prefer those independents and Japanese promotions that offer the kind of wrestling they like. Puro and ROH are the "mainstream" of the American English-speaking independent wrestling fan. Mexican Lucha is available, but not necessarily *accessible*.
The gray area is defining accessibility. Is lucha libre on basic cable really more accessible than Ring of Honor? Visually, yes. It can be on more TVs for less monetary investment. But the psychology of the wrestling is more difficult to comprehend because of the historical underlying storytelling methods and, in the absence of language fluency, there is no commentary to fall back on (I haven't had luck with a "reverse-SAP" button, you see). In my experience, I have an easier time following American- or European-style pro wrestling and wrestling from NOAH, DG, All Japan, or New Japan with no sound at all, no commentary, or Japanese commentary than I do lucha libre with any form of audio accompaniment. If anything, the consonant-heavy Romance language further complicates my comprehension because, unlike soccer [where the announcing helps the paint dry and linoleum peel more quickly], the action requires my immediate attention.
NOAH has made the presence of English-language commentary AND graphics on their DVDs into a selling point for our market (even though this market isn't necessarily huge, it is a revenue stream that costs nothing because of word of mouth). Even without English commentary, the sheer quantity of Dragon Gate DVDs available of TV and PPV at dirt-cheap prices - in addition to easily recognizable stables that include stars who have made "major" American inroads since at least ROH Dragon Gate Invasion in 2005 - have allowed them to grow in availability and visibility. So language is NOT a permanent barrier. I'm not claiming that it necessarily is a barrier on its own for lucha. BUT the style of lucha libre and the formulas that make it work seem to lack a story to the untrained eye that may just see spots. So it's the psychology, not the words, that really come into play. Having become accustomed to a Japanese style of wrestling that has historically accommodated gaijin from Brody to Funk to Foley to the Dudley Boys, many English-speaking fans find the style of lucha evolved in Japan to be more accessible because its Japanese aspects have built in American ones, too.
Mexican lucha libre has evolved to fit a global wrestling market in some ways. They adopted the long-established "work the left" in-ring psychology so that their stars could work more fluidly with foreign talents. They have searched out American independent talents whose styles can be utilized within lucha libre rather than relying on pre-made name talents whose styles clash and whose names carry as little drawing power there as Blue Demon does in the Smoky Mountains. AAA incorporating Evans, Hart and Romero (one example) allows them to begin building better relationships (ie, mutually beneficial exposure into new markets) with promotions and markets that are familiar with a few names or faces. Furthermore, Blue Demon Jr - the FREAKING NWA WORLD CHAMPION - proves that lucha is influential in enough regions that the NWA would gamble on crowning a non-English speaking champion as a means of rebuilding its base. But a cursory glimpse through the Mexican luchadors who have broken through stateside shows that they have changed their style more rapidly and drastically than have the American promotions themselves.
Your argument doesn't hold up. What did PAC do? Is this list basing his oh so memorable work in NWE? To my recollection, he didn't work ROH or any major indy this year. I'd rather watch the Knox/Finlay or Christian/Regal feuds. Win/loss records do not make good or bad workers.
What argument? And what the hell is an NWE? A form of birth control? No Willie Entry? What did I argue other than Saint and Taylor haven't had much exposure in a widely followed promotion other than Chikara? That Regal and Finlay, while featured on WWE TV quite heavily, have been utilized in such a way that the booking of both minimizes the visibility of their skill as workers (in that Regal uses the Roundtable as much as possible, while Finlay is used as a pure brawler rather than a pure wrestler? And that Pac, who has done well for himself primarily in Dragon Gate, is becoming a respected high-flyer drawing comparisons to Jack Evans (think this has to do with Evans being out of sight, out of mind, but available yet inaccessible on basic cable, while Pac is on YouTube and accessible match-by-match and by hearsay on message boards?). I haven't seen anything of Pac, but my mere presence on a wrestling message board allows me to be familiar with the name and the need-to-know info. I have seen plenty of Jack before, but not much is said about him in the places I frequent or e-frequent because he's out of sight, out of mind.
I never said any of the other malarkey you mention here. Win/loss records don't matter. Being featured, though, does matter. And actually wrestling in a manner consistent with a respectable workrate
by Powerslam's definition and
in possession of an interesting performance aspect by their definition does matter. Who will argue that Charlie Haas is a poor worker? But is it easy to argue that he doesn't belong anywhere near this list? Hell yes. Because he isn't featured, he isn't booked to be interesting, and his sole job is to make others look good. His workrate is usually good when he shows up on TV every couple months, or in that post-draft month of heavy enhancement use earlier this year. But he's not a player in his promotion, and thus not interesting nor is he a candidate to display his workrate often enough in comparison to his peers (ie, in that company/brand specifically).
That's, like, your opinion, man. Whatever. Again, not my list. I don't care about your list for the same reason I don't assemble one myself. But...
Everyone is generic until somebody decides he's not. Who gave two s***s about BJ Whitmer: strong style wannabe/Field of Honor era? But how much better a a reception did he get once Punk nicknamed him Hillbilly Jesus and he teamed up with Jimmy Jacobs? Entertaining, usually decent matches, with the same look and workrate outside of a generic gray hoodie. Never a great wrestler, but a decent enough midcard hand once he had a better hook than the less painful promo half of the Maff&Whitmer team. Eddie could've been generic indie guy. But instead he got put into a tag team with one of the bigger names out there and got put in headlining feuds and had a chance to build his resume. He did that admirably. Look: Powerslam Magazine has a big-time focus on puro. Japanese wrestling gets their rocks off. And they put out their annual top 50 based on workrate and performance. Eddie nailed the performance part by wrestling in a ladder war with a Broken Freaking Elbow.
Their list breaks down to:
15 WWE superstars (Rey, Punk, Edge, Jeff, JoMo, Jericho, Christian, Miz, Shawn, Hunter, Randy, Kofi, Ted Jr, Tyson, and Taker)
5.5 TNA wrestlers (AJ, MCMG, Joe, Angle and Wolfe [=0.5])
8.5 ROH wrestlers (Dragon, Aries, Wolves, Young Bucks, Tyler, Lynn, and Nigel [=0.5])
6 NOAH wrestlers (KENTA, Suguira, Nakajima, Go, Kanemaru, and Suzuki)
8 Dragon Gate wrestlers (Yoshino, Doi, Shingo, bxb Hulk, Ibushi, CIMA, Dragon Kid, and PAC)
4.5 NJPW wrestlers(Goto, Tanahashi, Nakamura, Devitt, and Nagata [=0.5])
1 AJPW wrestler (Hayashi)
1.5 Zero-1 wrestlers (Tanaka and Nagata [=0.5])
Eight promotions (or 10 brands) followed, in a vacuum, is a hell of a lot of wrestling. If one watches all 3 WWE brands, TNA, ROH, and the 5 Japanese promotions in question, or at least pays good attention and watches what he can, then one is acquiring a pretty decent variety of wrestling. It also accounts for a large enough investment of time that I can excuse their not being equally invested in an entirely different set of promotions with psychology, rules, moves, gimmicks, etc. all their own. How many do they have to follow? They know what they like and respect and judge as good. And they watch, judge, and rate those specifically.
I never made my previous post with the intention of defending some list some magazine published or offending whatever sensibilities of yours I offended. All I tried to do was offer a few qualifications for your quibbles. In terms of the top Mexican wrestlers and other luchadors, allow me to pose you this simple question: how often do CMLL or AAA get discussed on these forums, in comparison to other promotions in the US, Japan or elsewhere, including those that only run monthly or in one location? And other than Chikara, how much lucha discussion is there? CERTAINLY one can argue about, say, Mike Quackenbush's wrestling ability par excellence. But Chikara is an acquired taste that might by its very nature offend their wrestling sensibilities. Why, then, should we hold anyone to a standard of requiring them to watch what we watch and like what we like? It's an absurd progression, I recognize. But it is necessary to ask: what is necessary?