More Random WWF/E Champion?

[Dub H]

Apr 11, 2010 20:59:03 GMT -5 Alex Shelley said:

...Am I the only person who doesn't find Swagger random? They built him up quite a bit. Sure, they pushed him down a few months ago but they do that a lot to guys they're going to push. A year ago, everybody was saying Swagger would be a world champ in 2010. In January, one of my predictions was Swagger winning a world title this year.

Everything about the way they handled Swagger prior to his Santino feud pointed to him being a future world champ. He had a crappy few months, sure, but there's a legitimate reason for that. First, a lot of time was being taken up for the other feuds going on building up to WM. Three out of the four "big matches" built up mostly on Raw. During that, they were also busy building up The Miz. Notice that while almost all the other midcard guys didn't even make an appearance within those few months, other than to qualify for MITB, they DID have Swagger doing things - losing to Santino. They wanted to make him look like an idiot. They wanted to push him down a bit. If Swagger went into MITB being pushed like he has been in the past, it would have been too obvious that he'd win. Remember how everybody was complaining that Christian was the "obvious" winner? Yeah, it would have been like that - except the obvious choice would have actually won.

Everything they did with Swagger made perfect sense.

Stop making WWE booking make sense!

[Evilution E5150]

swagger for the pure fact that they put him on comentary on raw before wrestlemania and they could hardly even speak, both michael cole and king were feeding him lines to help put himself over and he couldnt even get that right. he was like a deer in the headlights. so painful to watch

[Alex Shelley]

Apr 11, 2010 22:38:07 GMT -5 Dub H said:

Apr 11, 2010 20:59:03 GMT -5 Alex Shelley said:

...Am I the only person who doesn't find Swagger random? They built him up quite a bit. Sure, they pushed him down a few months ago but they do that a lot to guys they're going to push. A year ago, everybody was saying Swagger would be a world champ in 2010. In January, one of my predictions was Swagger winning a world title this year.

Everything about the way they handled Swagger prior to his Santino feud pointed to him being a future world champ. He had a crappy few months, sure, but there's a legitimate reason for that. First, a lot of time was being taken up for the other feuds going on building up to WM. Three out of the four "big matches" built up mostly on Raw. During that, they were also busy building up The Miz. Notice that while almost all the other midcard guys didn't even make an appearance within those few months, other than to qualify for MITB, they DID have Swagger doing things - losing to Santino. They wanted to make him look like an idiot. They wanted to push him down a bit. If Swagger went into MITB being pushed like he has been in the past, it would have been too obvious that he'd win. Remember how everybody was complaining that Christian was the "obvious" winner? Yeah, it would have been like that - except the obvious choice would have actually won.

Everything they did with Swagger made perfect sense.

Stop making WWE booking make sense!

Sorry! I won't do it again! Honestly though, half the shit WWE books DOESN'T make sense, but this is one time that i truly feel that everything was deliberately done to make Swagger's win a shock. And it worked a lot - when you've got internet smarks shocked by the way the booking played out, you know you've done a good job. But if you look back at much of 2009, the signs were all there that they saw something in Swagger and were going to give him a huge push at some point.

[Arturo Classico]

Apr 11, 2010 22:57:28 GMT -5 Alex Shelley said:

Apr 11, 2010 22:38:07 GMT -5 Dub H said:

Stop making WWE booking make sense!

Sorry! I won't do it again! Honestly though, half the s*** WWE books DOESN'T make sense, but this is one time that i truly feel that everything was deliberately done to make Swagger's win a shock. And it worked a lot - when you've got internet smarks shocked by the way the booking played out, you know you've done a good job. But if you look back at much of 2009, the signs were all there that they saw something in Swagger and were going to give him a huge push at some point.

Just because it's shocking dosn't make it good! To me I was shocked in the sense it made me annoyed and not care about Smackdown. Thats not good especially with the age and health of most of the main event they should push exciting new talent like Kofi, Christian, MVP, Bourne, Miz, Morrison or Punk but they give a dude who has a lateral lisp, who went on an epic losing streak and the only thing that made him cool was his Angle like goofy confidence for a lame serious heel wrestler gimmick? BOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

I mean if you want a serious wrestler as champ than they should have just kept the belt on Jericho. Actually if anyone from WWE is reading give the belt back to Jericho!

[Deleted]

What about Backland in the early 90s...that'll be like I dunno Yokozuna (if he was still with us) coming back to beat Cena....

Or Hogan in 2002? HHH's babyface comeback from injury and turn on Steph was the focal point from the RR to WM of that year....and he loses the title a month later to a guy on his nostalgia run who dropped it to heel Taker at the next PPV.....that was weird.

[Matt Dunn]

Sheamus. Swagger at least had some time put in. Don't tell me about how "oh, Lesnar won the title in the same amount of time as Sheamus did." Lesnar was built up convincingly and had some good PPV matches before his run. What was Sheamus doing before? Beating up Jimmy Wang Yang? In that case, they should have put the belt on Vance Archer. Same build up.

You know its bad when the guy you put on your PPV has to have his name on it just so people can know who he is.

[Sajoa Moe]

Mick Foley, who competed in WCW as Cactus Jack, won their world title.

[Jay Carroll]

Apr 11, 2010 20:08:30 GMT -5 kidglov3s said:

I think that in his first reign Bret Hart was a more random champion than those named so far. The only world title change I can think of, especially up to that time, not to have an angle leading up to it. Bret was up there on the card, but he had just lost the IC title, and yes that was in the main event of Summerslam but more for the England/Bulldog connection than his star power at the time. Bret's title victory was announced on a recap show, and then only shown in segments.

Bret didn't really have the look or presence of past champions, which was of course the point but supports the idea of it being random to the audience. Which WWE acknowledged with the subsequent "fighting champion" angle, to justify him as a champion. It seems like they spend all of Survivor Series 1992 presenting arguments for why you should take Bret seriously as the new champion.

Compared to Swagger, the world title meant a lot more at that time, not just because there was only one (as there should logically be, in my opinion, I mean with two simultaneous world titleholders it's impossible for either one of them to be the champion, which is possibly by design but makes it difficult to put dramatic weight on either one of them for me). Bret didn't have the precedence that Swagger did either, of every MitB winner before him successfully challenging for and winning a title.

EDIT: I guess I'm kind of beating a dead horse but I did some research into how the IWC of 1992 reacted to news of Bret's title victory:

"I wouldn't doubt it being true. Giving Flair a short title reign is something
McMahon would do if Flair was just a carry over champion (pray it is so :->).
But why Bret Hart, a man who lost the IC strap over a month ago?"

"Weird. Not sure why they bothered giving it to Flair in the first place if
he's not going to have any major angles with it. I also don't see any
major angles with Hart having the belt, so I'm kinda wondering why Vince
didn't just pass the belt form Savage to the unnamed heel (Razor Ramon?)

Vince has been one to not have his World Title change hands all that often.
Maybe he's trying to out-do Watts in the unpredictability department... "

"This sounds fishy.
Somebody better check their facts. "

"Its getting to the point where all the major stars can call themselves former WWF champions. Who's next Tatanka? "

"Vince's been cheapening the title which was held by the greats of
the "sport" such as Sammartino, Morales, and Backlund. "

"We're still in a stage of total denial over here (Ric didn't lose,
Ric didn't lose, Ric didn't lose, NOOOOOOOOOOOO!). It just
doesn't make any sense. It makes so little sense that people on
da net have been concocting the most ludicrous scenarios (e.g.
Papa Shango beating Hart for the belt). There are only a limited
number of reasons to give Hart the belt, and none of them make sense:

1. Hart will be the next long-term face champion.
This is almost laughable. He can't draw, and tho I personally like
his no frills character, he just doesn't fit the WWF champion
prototype (i.e., the long-term face champion prototype).

2. He's a transition so that the belt can go to another heel.
But why? Flair's the best heel they got, especially at a time
when their heel depth is the lowest ever (besides Flair and Razor,
the number three guy is who? Kimala? Papa Shango? Nailz?). With
the possibility of Hogan coming back, and the certainty of a large
push for Backlund, does Vince really think that these guy'll do
better money challenging guyz like Nailz? "

Yeah, the IWC overreacts about everything, but it's interesting to consider what that title change would've seemed like at the time the news broke. Also interesting is how apparently all of the newz at the the time was hyping up Backlund to be a major player and in the title scene by WMIX.

Out of curiosity, how did you pull off that Google search? I never can find info like that when I look for things.

[Matt Dunn]

Apr 12, 2010 16:46:05 GMT -5 Jay Carroll said:

Apr 11, 2010 20:08:30 GMT -5 kidglov3s said:

I think that in his first reign Bret Hart was a more random champion than those named so far. The only world title change I can think of, especially up to that time, not to have an angle leading up to it. Bret was up there on the card, but he had just lost the IC title, and yes that was in the main event of Summerslam but more for the England/Bulldog connection than his star power at the time. Bret's title victory was announced on a recap show, and then only shown in segments.

Bret didn't really have the look or presence of past champions, which was of course the point but supports the idea of it being random to the audience. Which WWE acknowledged with the subsequent "fighting champion" angle, to justify him as a champion. It seems like they spend all of Survivor Series 1992 presenting arguments for why you should take Bret seriously as the new champion.

Compared to Swagger, the world title meant a lot more at that time, not just because there was only one (as there should logically be, in my opinion, I mean with two simultaneous world titleholders it's impossible for either one of them to be the champion, which is possibly by design but makes it difficult to put dramatic weight on either one of them for me). Bret didn't have the precedence that Swagger did either, of every MitB winner before him successfully challenging for and winning a title.

EDIT: I guess I'm kind of beating a dead horse but I did some research into how the IWC of 1992 reacted to news of Bret's title victory:

"I wouldn't doubt it being true. Giving Flair a short title reign is something
McMahon would do if Flair was just a carry over champion (pray it is so :->).
But why Bret Hart, a man who lost the IC strap over a month ago?"

"Weird. Not sure why they bothered giving it to Flair in the first place if
he's not going to have any major angles with it. I also don't see any
major angles with Hart having the belt, so I'm kinda wondering why Vince
didn't just pass the belt form Savage to the unnamed heel (Razor Ramon?)

Vince has been one to not have his World Title change hands all that often.
Maybe he's trying to out-do Watts in the unpredictability department... "

"This sounds fishy.
Somebody better check their facts. "

"Its getting to the point where all the major stars can call themselves former WWF champions. Who's next Tatanka? "

"Vince's been cheapening the title which was held by the greats of
the "sport" such as Sammartino, Morales, and Backlund. "

"We're still in a stage of total denial over here (Ric didn't lose,
Ric didn't lose, Ric didn't lose, NOOOOOOOOOOOO!). It just
doesn't make any sense. It makes so little sense that people on
da net have been concocting the most ludicrous scenarios (e.g.
Papa Shango beating Hart for the belt). There are only a limited
number of reasons to give Hart the belt, and none of them make sense:

1. Hart will be the next long-term face champion.
This is almost laughable. He can't draw, and tho I personally like
his no frills character, he just doesn't fit the WWF champion
prototype (i.e., the long-term face champion prototype).

2. He's a transition so that the belt can go to another heel.
But why? Flair's the best heel they got, especially at a time
when their heel depth is the lowest ever (besides Flair and Razor,
the number three guy is who? Kimala? Papa Shango? Nailz?). With
the possibility of Hogan coming back, and the certainty of a large
push for Backlund, does Vince really think that these guy'll do
better money challenging guyz like Nailz? "

Yeah, the IWC overreacts about everything, but it's interesting to consider what that title change would've seemed like at the time the news broke. Also interesting is how apparently all of the newz at the the time was hyping up Backlund to be a major player and in the title scene by WMIX.

Out of curiosity, how did you pull off that Google search? I never can find info like that when I look for things.

Interesting. Puts things into perspective.

[kidglov3s]

Apr 12, 2010 16:46:05 GMT -5 Jay Carroll said:

Out of curiosity, how did you pull off that Google search? I never can find info like that when I look for things.

Google's Groups section includes an archive of old Usenet groups, which goes back to at least the early 80s. To get what I found I went into advanced search, put "Bret Hart" into the field, and then set the dates from Sept. 1 1992 to Dec. 1 1992.

[FailedGimmick]

I don't think Swagger was all that random. Especially not after the incredible Elimination Chamber qualifier match he had with Triple H.

I was expecting a total squash, but it was a real competitive, back and forth match in which Triple H got the win because Swagger was showboating and pointing at the WrestleMania sign instead of finishing Triple H when he had the chance.

[Crappler El 0 M]

Bret Hart's first reign was definitely random because at this time title changes were almost always on either WrestleMania (V, VI, VII, VIII), Survivor Series (91), or Rumble (1992, vacant). Bret had been a successful tag team champion and Intercontinental Champion, but his WWE title win was out of the blue and with no build on a show few fans would know about.

[Enrico Palazzo]

The one that was most random for me was Jericho at Unforgiven 2008. I mean don't get me wrong I marked like a five year old Cena fan, but it made no real sense. He was in this incredible fued with Michaels, and then he was the champion? I think it was rather pointless, purely because Jericho didn't really need it.

[Dub H]

Apr 11, 2010 23:15:01 GMT -5 Arturo Classico said:

Apr 11, 2010 22:57:28 GMT -5 Alex Shelley said:

Sorry! I won't do it again! Honestly though, half the s*** WWE books DOESN'T make sense, but this is one time that i truly feel that everything was deliberately done to make Swagger's win a shock. And it worked a lot - when you've got internet smarks shocked by the way the booking played out, you know you've done a good job. But if you look back at much of 2009, the signs were all there that they saw something in Swagger and were going to give him a huge push at some point.

Just because it's shocking dosn't make it good! To me I was shocked in the sense it made me annoyed and not care about Smackdown. Thats not good especially with the age and health of most of the main event they should push exciting new talent like Kofi, Christian, MVP, Bourne, Miz, Morrison or Punk but they give a dude who has a lateral lisp, who went on an epic losing streak and the only thing that made him cool was his Angle like goofy confidence for a lame serious heel wrestler gimmick? BOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

I mean if you want a serious wrestler as champ than they should have just kept the belt on Jericho. Actually if anyone from WWE is reading give the belt back to Jericho!

I could point some hipocresy,but it would me look like a jerk

[Jason]

Swagger, cause he was luckily enough to even get on Raw a few months ago. And when he did, he lost. All of a sudden, he wins MITB and gets the world title 2 days later, mindblowing but I'm glad it happened. I'm a fan of the guy and he has all the tools.

Sheamus, but atleast he was built up to be a threat. He was killing everyone and won the title in surprising fashion. He did a good job and now he is a solid hand.

JBL, Khali, Eddie Guerrero (at the time), Randy Orton (at the time) were also pretty random.