|
|
Post by premiumcream on Oct 16, 2005 13:18:53 GMT -5
I agree with pretty much everything he had to say.
When Vince and Dave speak of Copani not working out as Hassan I don't think they mean the terrorist incident, I think they mean the massive push he got and his inability to garner any kind of real heat or draw money despite being booked against HBK and Hogan. Sure he got that cheap jingoist heat than any anti-American gimmick gets when they rag on the US, but his matches were dull as dishwater and nobody gave a damn about them. You guys trying to stick up for Copani were the same ones yelling about how much he sucked in the ring. Yes, the terrorist angle was the nail in the coffin and that was creative's fault, but the Hassan character was already dead in the water. The fact that he left the wrestling to pursue acting shows his heart wasn't really in the business anyways.
As far as what he said about TNA, I agree. Are AJ Styles, Christopher Daniels, and the rest of the X-Division incredible atheletes? Hell yes. Do they know how to tell a story in the ring or even how to sell properly? Hell no. Yeah, they pull off some incredible moves but they do not sell them for longer than five seconds and when they're done they get right up and pull of the next incredible move. It does nothing for the drama of the match and when they don't sell the moves. It makes the moves actually look LESS impressive because apparently they don't hurt at all. You've got to learn how to balance. That's why the WCW Cruiserweight division was so good in the mid to late 90's because the guys could do those crazy moves and still sell and make you think that was the most devastating move you've ever seen. X-Division matches are like wrestling school students trying out the coolest moves they learned in class without even following the format of a match.
If seeing high-flying moves with no pyschology whatsoever and Jeff Jarrett/Kevin Nash main events are you're cup of tea, enjoy your TNA. I'll stick with Batista vs. Eddie Guerrero.
|
|
The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785 
|
Post by The OP on Oct 16, 2005 13:21:21 GMT -5
I dont like Batista anyway, never have been a fan of his. But you know what? I'll probably never like TNA either. I've tried, I've watched most of the Impacts thus far, only missing last nights..but I dont care about it. I dont care about 90% of the people in it. I was raised on a certain type of wrestler, the WWF and WCW style superstars, and thats what I want. I want someone who looks, sounds, and acts like a wrestler. I want someone named like a wrestler. Who sounds tougher to you, guys like, Kane, Undertaker, Cactus Jack, Hulk Hogan, The Big Show....or...Alex Shelley? AJ Styles? Are they wrestlers or boy band members? Note that I'm not telling anyone what they should think or that one is better than the other because I said so. Thats just me personally. I understand what you're saying, but for me personally, it's not about a war between WWE style and TNA style just because Batista says so, or because a poster on this message board says so. I don't think it's even AS different as either company, or some fans, might like to think. For me, and probably a lot of others, the wrestlers I like are based on a combination of in-ring skill and having an entertaining character. For instance, I personally like AJ Styles better than I like Batista, and based on knowing that, you might think I always will like the better wrestler over the better entertainer, when in fact, that's often not the case. Case in point: I like JBL a lot more than I like Rey Mysterio, and was happy to learn that JBL got the victory at No Mercy. |
|
|
|
Post by royboy8 on Oct 16, 2005 13:36:44 GMT -5
your heart needs to be in it and the champ was 10000 percent right saying goldberg and brock's heart wasnt in it... you can tell by the way batista performs that he gives his all every night out... whats wrong with him calling people out and challenging them to get their hearts into it? i disagree with his opinion oh hasian but thats his opinion.... its a breath if fresh air having a guy step up and speak his mind instead of watered down stuff...
|
|
|
|
Post by skyday1402 on Oct 16, 2005 16:05:00 GMT -5
I know this is a Batista thread but... Triple H busts his ass dude. i don't know what you've been watching. No he doesn't. He busts it for who he wants to. He worked hard to carry Batista through Mania, He worked with Benjamin, Michaels, Eugene, Nash and Flair. Anyone else he phones it in. Now maybe this return will be different and I hope it is but as for his last run... I disagree. Triple H always puts on good matches. Some people just can't be carried. If a Triple H match isn't good, there are definitely others at fault. |
|
captainfancy
Bubba Ho-Tep
Ya'll take a listen, you'll hear the deep sound comin' down from Bobby Peru.
Posts: 643
|
Post by captainfancy on Oct 16, 2005 17:32:35 GMT -5
I know this is a Batista thread but... No he doesn't. He busts it for who he wants to. He worked hard to carry Batista through Mania, He worked with Benjamin, Michaels, Eugene, Nash and Flair. Anyone else he phones it in. Now maybe this return will be different and I hope it is but as for his last run... I disagree. Triple H always puts on good matches. Some people just can't be carried. If a Triple H match isn't good, there are definitely others at fault. Now come on, it's his fault SOMETIMES. |
|
|
|
Post by skyday1402 on Oct 16, 2005 17:38:55 GMT -5
Name one. I think he rarely has a bad match.. and when he has, you have to take into account who he was working with.
|
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Oct 16, 2005 18:48:57 GMT -5
My...my God.
Do you even read what you type?
I'm sorry, I don't make it a practice to bash anyone for their opinions, but this is NOT a matter of opinion.
Just like Batista, what you're saying here is BLATANTLY FALSE. You're working on an assumption, most likely not an educated one, at that, and it's wrong.
This isn't a matter of opinion, this is a matter of you making something up. You think Christopher Daniels can't tell a story in the ring? Have you ever WATCHED Christopher Daniels? Have you ever seen his indy work?
If you have, you wouldn't say something so outright inaccurate.
I'm sorry, but I HATE when this happens in a discussion. ANYONE is perfectly within their rights to say they don't like the kind of matches guys like Daniels, Shelley, AJ, Joe, Sabin, et. al. wrestle, but there is NO reason to tell an outright lie when explaining why.
|
|
|
|
Post by premiumcream on Oct 16, 2005 21:05:27 GMT -5
My...my God. Do you even read what you type? I'm sorry, I don't make it a practice to bash anyone for their opinions, but this is NOT a matter of opinion. Just like Batista, what you're saying here is BLATANTLY FALSE. You're working on an assumption, most likely not an educated one, at that, and it's wrong. This isn't a matter of opinion, this is a matter of you making something up. You think Christopher Daniels can't tell a story in the ring? Have you ever WATCHED Christopher Daniels? Have you ever seen his indy work? If you have, you wouldn't say something so outright inaccurate. I'm sorry, but I HATE when this happens in a discussion. ANYONE is perfectly within their rights to say they don't like the kind of matches guys like Daniels, Shelley, AJ, Joe, Sabin, et. al. wrestle, but there is NO reason to tell an outright lie when explaining why. Quiet fool. Don't make the assumption I have never seen Mr. Daniels wrestle. I've seen the majority of TNA's ppv's over the past year and watch TNA about twice a week. Yes, I've seen the Tag-Team cage match that indie lovers love to scream and wet themselves over and guess what? I think it's one of the most overrated matches of all time. Like I said, guys doing their crazy moves with no selling, no story and the announcers creaming their pants claiming it's the greatest match ever. No, I haven't seen his indy work. Do I have time to sit around and watch a bunch of indy matches and put indy world titles in my message board signature to try and convince everyone that I know what true wrestling is and that am an authority on everything wrestling and at the same time claiming opinion as untrue? Nope, sorry. The bottom line is this: I get no sense of emotion or drama out of anything anybody in the "amazing" X-Division ever does. And, this (in my humble opinion) is because nobody can tell a proper story or sell these incredibly impressive moves properly. Their matches play out like a massive rush to fit as many high spots into the time limit as possible. Besides, most of them have the charisma of a dish rag. |
|
|
|
Post by amsiraK on Oct 16, 2005 21:15:51 GMT -5
I think a line needs to be drawn between passionate discussion and "quiet fool/do you read what you type" Because the second is flaming.
The next time it happens will yield unpleasantness.
|
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Oct 16, 2005 22:39:25 GMT -5
Sorry, Karisma. Yeah, that sounded pretty jack-ass-ish from me.
I'm not going to use flame language, but let me get into this:
-Of course there's less selling in that match. It was the culmination of a one and a half year feud. It was a losing team splits up match. Naturally, there's going to be less prolonged selling (and I thought they DID do a good job selling in that match), and, naturally, they're going to throw big moves at each other. The match was also a TAG TEAM CAGE MATCH. There's less room for normal psychology and storytelling. Matches like that are more about brutality, hatred, blading, etc. I have a feeling you'd dislike puro, if you're going to put this match down for that.
-You also say this as if this is the crowning match of Christopher Daniels' career. Also, by admitting that you have NOT seen most of Daniels' career work, you really hurt your credibility on the subject of how good a wrestler he is. Beyond that, your continued insistence of his lack of storytelling leads me to believe that you have not, in fact, seen most of the matches during Daniels' X-Division title reign.
Daniels is universally acknowledged among not only fans, but most wrestlers, as one of the top talents of the last generation of wrestlers. He's typically reknown for his ability to adapt to different styles, his in-ring psychology, and solid promo/storytelling. His matches with Doug Williams, Paul London, Samoa Joe, CM Punk (including a recent one hour draw in a World Title match), hell, even freakin' Xavier, all bear this out to an undeniable extent. Even his match on the last Impact showed that out.
Like I said: I have no qualms with someone saying "I don't like Chris Daniels and/or his style". I think that's crazy, since I'm a big time mark for the guy, but I can respect that person's opinion.
But if you're going to dislike him, think of a reason that actually holds water. Has Daniels been involved in "spotfest" matches? Sure thing. Has he had matches where the basic idea was "hit big moves"? Of course. Most TNA talent has been in that kind of match (most noticably short "get yourself over quick in two minutes" Impact matches).
But to ignore the man's obvious ring skills? If you're going to slam Chris Daniels for poor psychology, then I'm afraid you have to slam Kurt Angle, as well.
-As for my signature, you're allowed to watch your wrestling, I'm allowed to watch mine.
|
|
|
|
Post by amsiraK on Oct 16, 2005 23:28:58 GMT -5
That's OK. I just hate to see stuff disintegrate into poop-throwing. Especially good threads like this.
And what are we equating 'psychology' with? The ability to further a story in a ring? Both companies are very capable of this in their own way. TNA's is a little more fast-paced, so more has to be done in less time, as far as I've seen. I've only been watching two weeks (c'mon, it's me. I'm always late to the show) and I've had no problem with the in-ring work. They could stand a little extrapolation outside of the ring, but that's my preference. I've had no problem picking up and following the action and the characters involved.
The move of TNA to Spike really did me a solid - now I can watch the WWE that I know and love and then catch TNA and a totally different style of grappling. It's a nice contrast and I'm glad for both.
|
|
Scott
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,577
|
Post by Scott on Oct 17, 2005 4:50:10 GMT -5
Bring back the Animal, he never spoke.
|
|
|
|
Post by David Troy a.k.a legendmythman on Oct 17, 2005 6:14:47 GMT -5
There are story-tellers in NWA and as far as just doing stunts the same could be said for EC/Dudleyz/Hardyz
|
|
|
|
Post by Juggalo/Hulkamaniac on Oct 17, 2005 7:50:44 GMT -5
He's kinda right. Since TNA started I don't know what the heck is going on. All it is is stunts and weird cruiswerweight moves, Jarret knocking people with guitars, and whatever else happens there.
|
|
The Happnin' Mojo
Dennis Stamp
Comedy is the last refuge of a nonconformist mind......just make sure it's really funny.
Posts: 4,216
|
Post by The Happnin' Mojo on Oct 17, 2005 8:30:54 GMT -5
Over reacting much people? All he did was speak his mind (or not according to others). What did you want him to say about TNA:
"I've seen very little of it. I saw their promo video........I totally MARKED OUT! Oh my God! Roxorz! I immediately went to Vince asked why we don't do that, bought a lucha mask and took a dump on his coat. TNA forever!"
Of course not. If you're the damn champion of a company why would you praise or even really give a fair assesment to another rival company? That's ridiculous.
As for his Hassan comment he praised Daivarri so I don't get the big deal. Months before everyone was dumping on Hassan for his matches and his sterotypical image. He gets canned (I hear that he had a chance to stay but decided not to) and now everyone cares? Why? Bottom line is he knows the situation better then I since he's commenting on backstage crap.
OVW? Couldn't agree more.
JBL and him? Ditto.
Some people are lazy in both lockerrooms? Some times it seems that way in the ring and he knows the people back stage so.......
Batista vs Brock? I'd like to see that.
Stop taking everything so personally everyone.
HLA
|
|
Bhester
Dennis Stamp
DAMN!
Posts: 4,137
|
Post by Bhester on Oct 17, 2005 8:32:45 GMT -5
Over reacting much people? All he did was speak his mind (or not according to others). What did you want him to say about TNA: "I've seen very little of it. I saw their promo video........I totally MARKED OUT! Oh my God! Roxorz! I immediately went to Vince asked why we don't do that, bought a lucha mask and took a dump on his coat. TNA forever!" Of course not. If you're the damn champion of a company why would you praise or even really give a fair assesment to another rival company? That's ridiculous. As for his Hassan comment he praised Daivarri so I don't get the big deal. Months before everyone was dumping on Hassan for his matches and his sterotypical image. He gets canned (I hear that he had a chance to stay but decided not to) and now everyone cares? Why? Bottom line is he knows the situation better then I since he's commenting on backstage crap. OVW? Couldn't agree more. JBL and him? Ditto. Some people are lazy in both lockerrooms? Some times it seems that way in the ring and he knows the people back stage so....... Batista vs Brock? I'd like to see that. Stop taking everything so personally everyone. Holler |
|
|
|
Post by vanterminator on Oct 17, 2005 8:55:10 GMT -5
He's kinda right. Since TNA started I don't know what the heck is going on. All it is is stunts and weird cruiswerweight moves, Jarret knocking people with guitars, and whatever else happens there. Wha...? Even if you have never seen TNA before it's debut on Spike, what's going on should be pretty strightfoward... Jarrett and Nash are feuding for the world title. Christopher Daniels wants to win the X-Division belt from AJ Styles, and the two apparently have a DEEP hatred for each other. Then there's the Hardy/Abyss/Sabu/Rhyno situation, they along with Monty Brown or Lance Hoyt could be in position for a title match soon. Then there's the disgruntled Raven. To round things off, there's the Tag Team scene with The Naturals vs. AMW and a really pissed off Team 3D. ...this is pro wrestling, not rocket science. It irks me when people get so caught up in these 'pompous' aspects like emotion or storytelling. Yes, having those things can be really great, but I think that should be secondary in a wrestling product. Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to see a good match first, and a good story second. A good example would be from ROH, Doug Williams vs. Nigel Mcguiness at the first Death Before Dishonor. Were they feuding? No. Did they hate each other? No. Then why have the match? Because they were two great athletes, so let's pit them against each other and see who's better. The result is an all-around great wrestling match without a lot of excess baggage dragging it down. You'd be surprised how much 'emotion' you can get out of "Me vs. you, let's see who's better", certainly a lot more than "Me vs. you for the custody of my child". Honestly, if WWE are going to have stories that are THAT ridiculous, then storytelling really has no place in my wrestling. I'm ready to let go of the past and to see pro wrestling evolve. Now that I'm done ranting on that, I really don't know who to blame for the Hassan character not working because I actually found him quite entertaining and was really upset about him getting the plug pulled. As for the OVW thing, there are certainly OVW alumini that have had great success in WWE (Cena, Batista). But for every one that becomes successful there's several who are sent right back there. Batista vs. JBL was a good feud, but the matches were just alright. They were good if you like power wrestling. Batista vs. Brock could be worth watching under the right circumstances (i.e. both participants are willing to put on the show of their lives). |
|
|
|
Post by thehatman on Oct 17, 2005 9:09:16 GMT -5
It sounds like a total Work. Because some of it gives Batista future fueds, insults another promotion or wokers. Just EXACTLY what Vince WANTS. And that's weird as hell. Even it SOUNDS like it is his own words, the words ITSELF doesn't sound like his: It sound's like Vince's. Exactly what I'm saying. Even though a few people denied the glass wall, that was just them securing their jobs. However, this is just a carbon copy of what Vince would say, except he'd never talk about TNA. So he has one of his stars do it for him. |
|
|
|
Post by aguamoose on Oct 17, 2005 9:40:29 GMT -5
I'd have to agree with what he said, apart from the hassan comment.
|
|
|
|
Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Oct 17, 2005 10:59:11 GMT -5
I don't get this either. I didn't know Hassan had so many fans before he got canned.
|
|
