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Post by poontangler on Jun 2, 2010 21:04:42 GMT -5
No one could've said it better. ECW was Extremely Crappy Wrestling as Jerry Lawler said. I still dont understand why there are so much ECW worshipping marks who think it is the end all be all of pro wrestling. Yes because RVD-Jerry Lynn, Dreamer-Rave, 3 Way Dance, Foley - Sabu, Taz-Sabu, Storm, Jericho, Mysterio, Juventud, Psichosis, Super Crazy, Rhyno, Shane Douglas and CW Anderson never had good matches and were all crappy wrestling. ECW had more than just violence. The reason people "worship" ECW is because it gave you a little bit of everything, hardcore matches, technical wrestling, lucha libre and a good tag team division. There was also awesome stroylines and great promos and it was a promotion that seemed to give the fans EXACTLY what they wanted. They were the first promotion that seemed to hold the fans as just important as the wrestlers. Is it a bit over-rated these days, sure. But under no circumstances was it crappy. I couldn't have said it better. Anyone who thinks it was all blood and violence apparently hasn't watched too much of it.
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Post by sunwukong on Jun 2, 2010 21:59:41 GMT -5
Yes because RVD-Jerry Lynn, Dreamer-Rave, 3 Way Dance, Foley - Sabu, Taz-Sabu, Storm, Jericho, Mysterio, Juventud, Psichosis, Super Crazy, Rhyno, Shane Douglas and CW Anderson never had good matches and were all crappy wrestling. ECW had more than just violence. The reason people "worship" ECW is because it gave you a little bit of everything, hardcore matches, technical wrestling, lucha libre and a good tag team division. There was also awesome stroylines and great promos and it was a promotion that seemed to give the fans EXACTLY what they wanted. They were the first promotion that seemed to hold the fans as just important as the wrestlers. Is it a bit over-rated these days, sure. But under no circumstances was it crappy. I couldn't have said it better. Anyone who thinks it was all blood and violence apparently hasn't watched too much of it. There was plenty of good wrestling, but it's legacy is always going to be defined by blood, hyper violence, hyper sexuality, and cursing. The tale has already been told as far as that goes. Most people don't associate ECW with mat classics.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jun 2, 2010 22:12:01 GMT -5
I'd say that and people chanting the name of the company instead of chanting for the wrestlers. That and every spotfest has 801 reversals followed by a pause for people to clap now. Only a few guys can get away with that in my book, such as Liger. Most of the time, I just think "and?"
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Post by "I'm Batman..." on Jun 2, 2010 22:29:24 GMT -5
kinda like woodstock...
"....you had to be there, man."
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Post by poontangler on Jun 2, 2010 22:34:29 GMT -5
kinda like woodstock... "....you had to be there, man." That's the truth. Wrestling is whatever Vince says it is/was now. If it wasn't for ECW, I may not have paid attention to wrestling after the early 90's. I hadn't been watching much at all. Then one night, I found ECW on the MSG Network, and it revitalized me as a fan. Thank you, Todd & Paul. Some of us remember what it was REALLY all about.
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Post by eDemento2099 on Jun 2, 2010 23:36:06 GMT -5
ECW was the Nirvana to the WWF and WCW's arena rock. In the end all it really accomplished was influencing a bunch of guys that had no business being in the ring to "wrestle" Much the same as the deluge of bands that came after Nirvana that took from them the simplicity of song craft without having the ability to write a decent song. No one could've said it better. ECW was Extremely Crappy Wrestling as Jerry Lawler said. I still dont understand why there are so much ECW worshipping marks who think it is the end all be all of pro wrestling. I think you misunderstood the guy you quoted. Nirvana were not a bad band, just as ECW was not a bad wrestling promotion; Nirvana's INFLUENCE was bad in the sense that it inspired people to start bands without developing decent songwriting skills, just as ECW's INFLUENCE was bad in the sense that it inspired people to start up promotions without developing a good product. Jerry Lawler acted like a deluded fanboy when he referred to ECW as "Extremely Crappy Wrestling." Quoting such blatantly biased rhetoric really doesn't make for a compelling argument against the promotion.
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Post by Larryhausen on Jun 3, 2010 4:11:39 GMT -5
No one could've said it better. ECW was Extremely Crappy Wrestling as Jerry Lawler said. I still dont understand why there are so much ECW worshipping marks who think it is the end all be all of pro wrestling. I think you misunderstood the guy you quoted. Nirvana were not a bad band, just as ECW was not a bad wrestling promotion; Nirvana's INFLUENCE was bad in the sense that it inspired people to start bands without developing decent songwriting skills, just as ECW's INFLUENCE was bad in the sense that it inspired people to start up promotions without developing a good product. Jerry Lawler acted like a deluded fanboy when he referred to ECW as "Extremely Crappy Wrestling." Quoting such blatantly biased rhetoric really doesn't make for a compelling argument against the promotion. I also want to add that, without ECW, there's no way of knowing how WWE would be operating today. If Vince didn't use the ideas he got from ECW, leading us to Attitude, WWE might have been pushed out of business by WCW. And if WCW was still put out of business after the Time Warner merger, where would that leave us? I can understand if it wasn't your thing, but saying that ECW had no effect or impact, positive or otherwise, is just ridiculous.
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jamielowndes {N}
Unicron
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Post by jamielowndes {N} on Jun 3, 2010 5:45:16 GMT -5
I like that the chain reversals had the clapping. In the day and age where people complain that fans only pop for the spots, its nice to see people did acknowledge quality wrestling.
The street clothes look worked on Raven and the Sandman. Everyone else couldve gotten along without it. I never gave a shit about Balls Mahoney to be fair. All the guy could do was swing a chair.
The way that people have taken hardcore wrestling to the max (CZW) sickens me as well. You have yard tards hitting each other with light tubes and throwing guys who are busted open into pools of mud. Thats not entertainment, and says nothing about how tough or skilled you are, it just makes you a dumbass.
Not to mention the guys who couldnt do anything else. I think Sabu sucks, I always have done. If steel chairs werent in wrestling, he wouldnt be in wrestling. Botchtastic, all he does is throw a chair, and jump off it.
I dont like people just flat out trashing ECW altogether, because the lucha guys, Jerry Lynn, Lance Storm, RVD, Dreamer, Raven. These amongst many others were great performers.
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Post by repomanfan on Jun 3, 2010 7:57:23 GMT -5
I think you misunderstood the guy you quoted. Nirvana were not a bad band, just as ECW was not a bad wrestling promotion; Nirvana's INFLUENCE was bad in the sense that it inspired people to start bands without developing decent songwriting skills, just as ECW's INFLUENCE was bad in the sense that it inspired people to start up promotions without developing a good product. . I also want to add that, without ECW, there's no way of knowing how WWE would be operating today. If Vince didn't use the ideas he got from ECW, leading us to Attitude, WWE might have been pushed out of business by WCW. . How is that a bad thing? Wrestling would of been better off if the WWE went out of business ten years ago. ECW, Attitude Era, and the Monday Night Wars changed the business forever.
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Scott Parker
Trap-Jaw
some wrestler you've never heard of
Posts: 264
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Post by Scott Parker on Jun 3, 2010 9:44:28 GMT -5
The street clothes look worked on Raven and the Sandman. Everyone else couldve gotten along without it. Very true. The Raven character wouldn't have worked without the grungy "I really don't give a s***" look he had going. Don't get me wrong, when I first got to finally watch ECW when the got the TNN deal(no TV stations around my area carried it before), I was hooked and started ordering tapes from RF video to get to see some of the stuff I had missed. For a short time I was drinking Paul E's Kool-Aid and thought it was the greatest thing ever. A few years later I took out the old tapes and realized that while it had some great moments, characters and matches; it wasn't the be-all, end-all of wrestling I once thought it was. There were even some things I looked back on and wondered what the hell was wrong with me for enjoying it, but that's a whole other subject in it's own. My original post was not meant to bash ECW. The guys wearing street clothes to wrestle(among other things that indy wrestlers and promoters try to copy from ECW) in may have worked for the time and for that company, but the 90's and ECW are over. The fans and the wrestling business are waiting for the some wrestlers to realize this too.
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Post by Shameful_Lobsterhead on Jun 3, 2010 10:11:31 GMT -5
The only thing, if any that ECW produced when it came to the wild crazy characters are
-Sabu -Sandman -Dreamer -New Jack (Even though the whole character started in SMW) -Dudley Boys -Stevie Richards
You talk to at least 100 wrestling fans and they will tell you that one of the guys I just mentioned are great.
Half of the ECW roster they brung in from the start to the end, were former wrestlers from other promotions, Hansen, The Steiners, Terry and Dory Funk, Abdullah, Mick Foley, Austin, Rey Rey, Psychosis, and I could keep going.
A lot of the original ECW guys, it took them years to be where they are today. I mean at least New Jack doesn't hide it, he is a brawler who cuts someone up for 6 mins, jumps from a high spot in the building and that's it. The hardcore style, even though it wouldn't be as violent at times, it was the worst thing they influenced on the indy scene.
Personally I think all the hardcore freaks in the indy scene, should just move to Japan and work for BJPW, since they are mainly the last true "deathmatch" promotion over there. This way, all the hardcore and sick shit can be weened out here in the states and we can get regular hardcore matches that don't involve the entire store of home depot.
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barley96
Dennis Stamp
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Post by barley96 on Jun 3, 2010 11:04:32 GMT -5
I apologize if it has been said, but the worst thing ECW did was spoil us with the most entertaining matches. I don't mean just hardcore matches. For example look at Chris Benoit. I am a huge fan of the Japanese Strong style of wrestling. The problem is, is that it is way too physically taxing, and that could very well be the reason he snapped. Now when we see someone like John Cena wrestling, people (myself included) jeer him, and say he cannot wrestle when before ECW, that style was perfectly exceptable ie Hogan, Warrior or Andre.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 3, 2010 11:34:46 GMT -5
Encompassing the chant stuff, I'd argue it was the first time that a crowd collectively marked for themselves and became about getting themselves over. There's a difference between a hot crowd and a crowd that makes itself a part of the show. I'm not watching the show to see fat guys in tshirts two sizes too small try and be funny or edgy in the crowd. This has got to be it. ECW had plenty of positives going for it creatively, and the whole "getting the crowd involved" aspect was part of what set it apart, but the negative we had to accept with that was that fans would now try harder to get themselves over than they would to just enjoy a damn show.
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Post by PaperStreetBrigade on Jun 3, 2010 14:21:17 GMT -5
kinda like woodstock... "....you had to be there, man." This times 1000. Being born in the early 80s, you were so sick and tired of the same old wrestling. Half the WWF roster had full time jobs, and WCW was basically 80s WWF redo. Everything about ECW was just such a breath of fresh air. I'll admit that a lot of the time when I watch my ECW DVDs I don't normally watch the match. Instead I'll just play the promos. It's almost like the same joy I get from reading a good book with that old book smell.
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erisi236
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by erisi236 on Jun 3, 2010 15:05:29 GMT -5
Yeah I feel that "you had to be there" thing. I remember stumbling apon ECW sometime in 95 on some random tv station in Boston and being total blown away by what I saw and was hooked right then and there. Going to house shows just cemented it, something about being able to slap your wresting icons on the back as they wade into the crowd was so awesome.
I think the "regular Joe" aspect was a plus and regular joes that could chain wrestle was just awesome.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jun 3, 2010 16:10:50 GMT -5
I like that the chain reversals had the clapping. In the day and age where people complain that fans only pop for the spots, its nice to see people did acknowledge quality wrestling. Except it's for spots, not chain wrestling. Rarely does actual chain wrestling get that response. When Angle and Wolfe were having amazing matches, they didn't stop to "let" the fans applaud, they wrestled. It's become a spot for the X style guys to trade near falls and then stand there hoping fans clap for them.
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Post by repomanfan on Jun 3, 2010 17:09:10 GMT -5
Yeah I feel that "you had to be there" thing. I remember stumbling apon ECW sometime in 95 on some random tv station in Boston and being total blown away by what I saw and was hooked right then and there. Going to house shows just cemented it, something about being able to slap your wresting icons on the back as they wade into the crowd was so awesome. I think the "regular Joe" aspect was a plus and regular joes that could chain wrestle was just awesome. IMO, pro wrestling is not supposed to be about "Regular Joes" in street clothes. If i wanted to see flabby guys in jeans, duke it out. I might as well just go watch some toughmen contest down at the state fair. Ric Flair, Sammartino, Bockwinkle, Buddy Rogers, Hogan etc.. looked the part, spoke the part, and acted the part. Guys like that are the epitome of what it means to be a pro. Unfortunately these so called "wrestlers" of today, do not emulate the true professionals of yester year. They think it's all about profanity, going through tables, and doing as many pointless moves as possible, without selling. They simply don't get it.
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jamielowndes {N}
Unicron
The following post has been paid for by the Nexus World Order
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Post by jamielowndes {N} on Jun 3, 2010 17:15:47 GMT -5
I like that the chain reversals had the clapping. In the day and age where people complain that fans only pop for the spots, its nice to see people did acknowledge quality wrestling. Except it's for spots, not chain wrestling. Rarely does actual chain wrestling get that response. When Angle and Wolfe were having amazing matches, they didn't stop to "let" the fans applaud, they wrestled. It's become a spot for the X style guys to trade near falls and then stand there hoping fans clap for them. I was referring to it in the ECW era. Jerry Lynn vs Super Crazy IIRC would go at it for about 8 links to the chain and stand off. Since then, its degenerated into almost a designated pause. Nowadays like I said, its all about popping for spots.
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Post by poontangler on Jun 3, 2010 18:58:39 GMT -5
Except it's for spots, not chain wrestling. Rarely does actual chain wrestling get that response. When Angle and Wolfe were having amazing matches, they didn't stop to "let" the fans applaud, they wrestled. It's become a spot for the X style guys to trade near falls and then stand there hoping fans clap for them. I was referring to it in the ECW era. Jerry Lynn vs Super Crazy IIRC would go at it for about 8 links to the chain and stand off. Since then, its degenerated into almost a designated pause. Nowadays like I said, its all about popping for spots. And to be fair, Eddy Guerrero (he used the -y instead of the -ie then) and Dean Malenko were the worst offenders in this regard, and not many people bash the two of them.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jun 3, 2010 19:01:47 GMT -5
Except it's for spots, not chain wrestling. Rarely does actual chain wrestling get that response. When Angle and Wolfe were having amazing matches, they didn't stop to "let" the fans applaud, they wrestled. It's become a spot for the X style guys to trade near falls and then stand there hoping fans clap for them. I was referring to it in the ECW era. Jerry Lynn vs Super Crazy IIRC would go at it for about 8 links to the chain and stand off. Since then, its degenerated into almost a designated pause. Nowadays like I said, its all about popping for spots. I do think that when used right, it's a great thing. Trading counters, coming to a stand off and, looking for an opening is fine by me but, is rarely done. It seems like now it's trade spots, stop and, beg for applause.
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