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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Dec 29, 2010 6:41:33 GMT -5
One of my professors, in our first day in class, was going over the syllabus. He said, "I know it says there are three books for this course. Have any of you bought the books already?" A few people raised their hands. He said, "When you leave here, head to the bookstore, you can still get your full refund. We won't be using them. I had been unaware of how much these things cost, and how little they give you for them when you resale them, if you get anything. I think you're being ripped off, and I won't have any part of it. I can teach this course without a book." And he did. That guy was one of my favorite professors. I had a class or two similar to this. Only instead of not using the books at all, they just scanned them in so we got the material free online. I think the profs/school had to pay some royalty fee for it, but not us On the other side I remember there was one prof I had who could have scanned in the book they used. She said she meant to do it, but was just to lazy to. Then a few of the students laughed. All I could think was, "Yeah, because she's too lazy now we have to pay for it, real funny."
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Post by Pervy Stone Cold on Dec 29, 2010 11:33:22 GMT -5
$900 for books this semester, you got it easy.
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@TenaciousBe
Hank Scorpio
Guess who's back... back again
Posts: 5,659
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Post by @TenaciousBe on Dec 29, 2010 13:24:45 GMT -5
The entire concept of "textbooks" is a bit outdated, anyway. We live in an age where information and technology move so fast that having a static pile of paper bound together from last year or the year before may not do much good to you this year, unless it's a history lesson. Make sure everyone on campus has a laptop, tablet, iPad, netbook, even a Kindle, and publish the books in electronic form. It's "greener," it keeps information updated more regularly, and would overall be "the right thing to do." But it won't generate 150 bucks a book, so obviously they won't do it. But they should.
PS - yes, if you do have to buy books, SO do it online. The bookstores are a total ripoff, and you can get by so much cheaper buying/reselling to other students online.
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h
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,734
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Post by h on Dec 29, 2010 13:35:20 GMT -5
I always got in touch with my professors by e-mail when I registered for the course. All of them were happy to provide me with the title, author, edition, publisher, and ISBN of any books required for the course.
I bought them all from the Advanced Book Exchange, although these days, Dealoz compiles the best prices from several sources, including ABE, Amazon, eBay, etc., so I'd recommend them. I saved at least $200 per semester this way.
You might even be able to get some practically free from BookMooch (available worldwide) or PaperBackSwap (US only).
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 29, 2010 14:47:25 GMT -5
The entire concept of "textbooks" is a bit outdated, anyway. We live in an age where information and technology move so fast that having a static pile of paper bound together from last year or the year before may not do much good to you this year, unless it's a history lesson. Make sure everyone on campus has a laptop, tablet, iPad, netbook, even a Kindle, and publish the books in electronic form. It's "greener," it keeps information updated more regularly, and would overall be "the right thing to do." But it won't generate 150 bucks a book, so obviously they won't do it. But they should. PS - yes, if you do have to buy books, SO do it online. The bookstores are a total ripoff, and you can get by so much cheaper buying/reselling to other students online. A lot of textbooks are offered as e-books now. I know that's where I'm going to get mine this year now that I have an e-reader. It's just that providing laptops to every student would more expensive than most schools want to do, and forcing them to have one from their own pocket would be excessively strict (and, arguably, discriminatory). Also, a lot of professors at schools haven't even adapted to the technology that quickly.
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Post by Long A, Short A on Dec 29, 2010 17:34:25 GMT -5
Yeah, I can forgive the Campbell/Reece textbook (biology) for coming out with a new edition as often as they do. I bought my current textbook in 2009 and there are already pieces in it that are outdated. Small pieces, but pieces nonetheless. The price I can't forgive, but coming out with new editions makes sense in a field that can change so rapidly. What I can't forgive is the stats textbook where the "updates" made in the yearly new edition are changing the numbers in a couple of word problems. This happened with lots of my cousin science books. What gets me is when you get more money for old and beat down books than brand new books. My first semester of college I bought a book that was written and published by the teacher and I got 70% of my money back. I beast the crap out that book to boot.
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TheDieselTrain
Fry's dog Seymour
Chicks Dig Hootie.
Is Stone Cold gonna have to smack a bitch?? WHAT!!!?????
Posts: 23,724
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Post by TheDieselTrain on Dec 29, 2010 18:22:40 GMT -5
I remember my last few semesters I procrastinated as long as I could when it came to getting textbooks. My book store was criminal as far as charge and returns went.
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Post by A Dubya (El Hombre Muerto) on Dec 29, 2010 18:58:29 GMT -5
Yeah... textbooks are a frickin' rip off. Yes indeed. I have been through this so many times during my college days. I recall one time for an ISP course I had to take as a requirement for my degree program, we were told to buy these "clickers". Turns out, the professor didn't want to use them halfway through the semester. So guess where that leaves me? I still have the damn thing about 5 years later because nobody would take them back or buy them. The college textbook thing has got to be one of the biggest cash grab, ripoff, bogus pieces of business ever. I remember buying a book for $70+ and only getting $4 back because it was "no longer relevant". So, I feel your pain and anger.
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Post by KStrick on Dec 29, 2010 18:59:49 GMT -5
I spent $490 on books.
I got back $25
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Jay Peas 42
El Dandy
Totally flips out ALL the time.
Is looking forward to a Nation of Domination Kwannza Special.
Posts: 8,329
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Post by Jay Peas 42 on Dec 29, 2010 19:37:57 GMT -5
Yeah, there are some good points, but there are three big missing pieces
1. Textbooks are Expensive: Please remember, that most textbooks do not benefit from economies of scale. So, instead of publishing several hundred thousand, you are really only publishing a few dozen. In addition, once you start add pictures, photos and large binding, the costs will add up fast.
2. Textbooks are cheap. When you say, "textbooks are expensive," I say, "compared to what?" Tutition? Fees? Meal Plans? Room? Board? Travel? The problem is, you are college students, Books are the only thing you usually directly pay for. I mean, at least you get to keep those.
3. College as a whole is wasteful. Most colleges raise their tutition rates six percent a year for a reason, because they can get away with it. Students can always borrow more, there is no financial incentive on behalf of the college to restrict expenses. To argue that books are expensive when the whole freaken system just keeps growing and growing without any real restraint.
Besides, I paid about $150.00 to $300.00 for books every term. I pay $390.00 in monthly student loan payments now. In the passage of time we are all dead.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 29, 2010 20:01:40 GMT -5
Yeah, there are some good points, but there are three big missing pieces 1. Textbooks are Expensive: Please remember, that most textbooks do not benefit from economies of scale. So, instead of publishing several hundred thousand, you are really only publishing a few dozen. In addition, once you start add pictures, photos and large binding, the costs will add up fast. 2. Textbooks are cheap. When you say, "textbooks are expensive," I say, "compared to what?" Tutition? Fees? Meal Plans? Room? Board? Travel? The problem is, you are college students, Books are the only thing you usually directly pay for. I mean, at least you get to keep those. 3. College as a whole is wasteful. Most colleges raise their tutition rates six percent a year for a reason, because they can get away with it. Students can always borrow more, there is no financial incentive on behalf of the college to restrict expenses. To argue that books are expensive when the whole freaken system just keeps growing and growing without any real restraint. There's a few problems with some of your points. First off, textbooks increase at a rate (with conservative estimates) about 2x the rate of inflation for finished goods. Then, you have to consider that new editions with minor changes (at best) get released every two to three years and when those new editions are released, price increases about 12 percent. It's not inflation driving it up, the prices are actually outpacing inflation. As for their cost compared to school, Some estimates show that, at state schools, textbooks make up 1/4 the cost of school, and 3/4 the cost of school at community colleges. I don't know what classes you were taking to only pay that for books, but for many majors, those are the types of prices you'll see for 1 book. And these are for goods you're expected to use for 1 semester (at most, 2) and not look at again. And even then, you use textbooks less than you use you're room. When people say textbooks are expensive, it's pretty justified even when tuition costs are increasing. Textbooks are best compared to luxury goods, something with a relatively high price and very limited use, one class. Then you have the bundling, where textbook publishers will now shrink wrap a CD Rom (often times useless to the class) that can increase the price as much as 50 percent, oh, and they're not available without the CD Rom, regardless of whether the professor uses it. And all those new editions that just get more and more expensive, most professors say they're not needed or justified. They just release them every few years to purge the used book market. And the biggest sign that it's not the cost of actually producing the book that's at the center of the cost? The fact that textbooks are around 20 percent cheaper outside of the US. Sorry, if there's one industry that doesn't need the defenders, it's that one.
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Post by Kevin's Thorn on Dec 29, 2010 20:23:33 GMT -5
English majors luck out, as they usually will get by with a professor's course packet (full of photocopied literature that is required reading for the semester); that or if you're in a specific literature course you can simply borrow fiction novels from the library, or go peruse the non-fiction stuff there for free.
Alas, the money you save on books comes back to bite you after graduation when you try to use your English degree to get a decent-paying job outside the education industry...
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h
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,734
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Post by h on Dec 29, 2010 21:30:26 GMT -5
And the biggest sign that it's not the cost of actually producing the book that's at the center of the cost? The fact that textbooks are around 20 percent cheaper outside of the US. I'll assume you've never bought books in Canada. Even when the dollar is at par, the price in Canada is still 20-40% higher than the American price. English majors luck out, as they usually will get by with a professor's course packet (full of photocopied literature that is required reading for the semester); that or if you're in a specific literature course you can simply borrow fiction novels from the library, or go peruse the non-fiction stuff there for free. I know you specified "usually," and I agree that overall, English majors pay less for books than anyone in math or science. Unfortunately, most survey literature courses have an anthology for the reading (also updated every couple of years with a slightly different collection of stories and poems) that costs $100 or so. For upper-level courses, the books do get cheaper. There are several books required for each course, but it still works out to be cheaper overall (especially if you can buy a book used for $3 instead of new from the university bookstore for $24). Some professors try to insist on a specific edition, claiming that when discussing a quotation or including one in an essay, everyone in the class needs to be on exactly the same page. Seriously, though, Oliver Twist is Oliver Twist. It hasn't changed in 170 years, so there's no reason to pay $30 for a copy. The coursepacks can be nice, although the costs fluctuate like crazy. Some professors put one together for about $30, while others charge $65. I assume there's some sort of difference in copyright costs, but that might just be me trying to think the best of people. For graduate level courses, things change completely. A lot of professors don't like the university bookstore, so they order the books through a locally owned store. It doesn't seem to have any impact on the pricing (I spent over $100 on books for a course at a bookstore that billed itself as "socialist"), but it makes buying the books a bit of a chore, since you may have to drive all over a big city to find several specific stores.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Dec 29, 2010 21:40:44 GMT -5
377 for me this semester if all used books are available. I checked online but couldn't save more than 10 dollars on any given book, which would have been made up in shipping.
It is all a scam, but you've got to pay to play.
Requiring laptops would absolutely not be discriminatory.
1) Low end can be bought for 400 dollars, not much more (or even LESS) than the cost of textbooks for one semester.
2) They could always rent them for a fee.
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Jay Peas 42
El Dandy
Totally flips out ALL the time.
Is looking forward to a Nation of Domination Kwannza Special.
Posts: 8,329
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Post by Jay Peas 42 on Dec 29, 2010 23:33:03 GMT -5
Yeah, there are some good points, but there are three big missing pieces 1. Textbooks are Expensive: Please remember, that most textbooks do not benefit from economies of scale. So, instead of publishing several hundred thousand, you are really only publishing a few dozen. In addition, once you start add pictures, photos and large binding, the costs will add up fast. 2. Textbooks are cheap. When you say, "textbooks are expensive," I say, "compared to what?" Tutition? Fees? Meal Plans? Room? Board? Travel? The problem is, you are college students, Books are the only thing you usually directly pay for. I mean, at least you get to keep those. 3. College as a whole is wasteful. Most colleges raise their tutition rates six percent a year for a reason, because they can get away with it. Students can always borrow more, there is no financial incentive on behalf of the college to restrict expenses. To argue that books are expensive when the whole freaken system just keeps growing and growing without any real restraint. There's a few problems with some of your points. First off, textbooks increase at a rate (with conservative estimates) about 2x the rate of inflation for finished goods. Then, you have to consider that new editions with minor changes (at best) get released every two to three years and when those new editions are released, price increases about 12 percent. It's not inflation driving it up, the prices are actually outpacing inflation. As for their cost compared to school, Some estimates show that, at state schools, textbooks make up 1/4 the cost of school, and 3/4 the cost of school at community colleges. I don't know what classes you were taking to only pay that for books, but for many majors, those are the types of prices you'll see for 1 book. And these are for goods you're expected to use for 1 semester (at most, 2) and not look at again. And even then, you use textbooks less than you use you're room. When people say textbooks are expensive, it's pretty justified even when tuition costs are increasing. Textbooks are best compared to luxury goods, something with a relatively high price and very limited use, one class. Then you have the bundling, where textbook publishers will now shrink wrap a CD Rom (often times useless to the class) that can increase the price as much as 50 percent, oh, and they're not available without the CD Rom, regardless of whether the professor uses it. And all those new editions that just get more and more expensive, most professors say they're not needed or justified. They just release them every few years to purge the used book market. And the biggest sign that it's not the cost of actually producing the book that's at the center of the cost? The fact that textbooks are around 20 percent cheaper outside of the US. Sorry, if there's one industry that doesn't need the defenders, it's that one. I would generally argue that Higher Education as a whole is managed primarily as a means of getting as much federal subsidy as it can, textbook companies are no exception, and that the system is corrupt. However, my primary complaint is that, 1. Textbooks are still expensive on their own, and 2. Student outcry is caused because textbooks are the only thing students directly pay for. Everything else is paid with loans, or with state subsidy. I mean, as long as the price of education is governed by how much the Federal Government has to loan out, textbook companies would be fools not to gouge the students.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 30, 2010 0:37:26 GMT -5
Requiring laptops would absolutely not be discriminatory. 1) Low end can be bought for 400 dollars, not much more (or even LESS) than the cost of textbooks for one semester. 2) They could always rent them for a fee. Eh, it depends. $400 up front can be steep if you're barely scraping buy with college already, and the e-books wouldn't be free, just reduced, so you'd still have to pay for that. And that's assuming nothing goes wrong and you have to replace it. Over the long run, you'd save money most likely, but the added upfront cost could be larger than without that requirement. I would generally argue that Higher Education as a whole is managed primarily as a means of getting as much federal subsidy as it can, textbook companies are no exception, and that the system is corrupt. However, my primary complaint is that, 1. Textbooks are still expensive on their own, and 2. Student outcry is caused because textbooks are the only thing students directly pay for. Everything else is paid with loans, or with state subsidy. I mean, as long as the price of education is governed by how much the Federal Government has to loan out, textbook companies would be fools not to gouge the students. They're more expensive to produce than the average book, sure, but their costs still don't match the increase in prices, nor the minor necessary "upgrades" that don't change anything substantial but wipe out the used textbook/resale market, nor the bundling with useless extras that most students won't even open but increase the price substantially. That second point is assuming quite a bit, that all (or even most) students pay for all other costs with loan or state subsidy, but not on textbooks. That's not always the case. The scholarships I got weren't enough to pay off the entire tuition cost, as well as room and board. I didn't get a bunch of student loans to pay them off, I worked. I know a lot of others who also found ways to pay for things that didn't involve loans or scholarships. There are a lot of students who know to avoid student loans (another corrupt industry) out there, so that's a rather big generalization. And even then, that's a rather flimsy excuse to justify racketeering. I understand what you're saying in theory, but I don't think the industry has justification, it's just operating, for the most part, as the monopoly that it is, and students are the ones who bear the burden.
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
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I've been found out!
Posts: 31,355
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Dec 30, 2010 2:36:13 GMT -5
For graduate level courses, things change completely. A lot of professors don't like the university bookstore, so they order the books through a locally owned store. It doesn't seem to have any impact on the pricing (I spent over $100 on books for a course at a bookstore that billed itself as "socialist"), but it makes buying the books a bit of a chore, since you may have to drive all over a big city to find several specific stores. Hell, I just completed my Master's degree and I only had to buy one textbook during my entire post grad degree. Granted, that textbook was a Biochemistry book that literally is 4 inches thick, cost $240, and wound up having a new edition come out the following year so I could not sell it. Then again, I had to make full use of the various journal subscriptions that the university made available to me (saving me thousands of dollars directly).
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