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Post by nickcave on Feb 26, 2011 20:38:35 GMT -5
Has anybody ever heard of these? They are basically why many matches now in WWE and elsewhere seem so similar. This is a great interview where Al Snow talks about why they are ruining wrestling if you want to check that out but what do you guys think about them?
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Post by Alex Shelley on Feb 26, 2011 21:15:17 GMT -5
I don't really have the time or energy to listen to a 25 minute video - could anybody summarize?
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Feb 26, 2011 21:23:25 GMT -5
I don't really have the time or energy to listen to a 25 minute video - could anybody summarize? that's exactly the way I feel. I hate links to shoot interviews. Give me a transcript, or hit the high points and let me move at my speed. |
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Post by Kangaroo_Punch on Feb 26, 2011 21:54:28 GMT -5
I have that kind of time, gentlemen...
He starts by saying that the same match formula is being taught to every worker in the world, and because of this matches are becoming generic. It's the basic outline we've all seen a million times:
1) Babyface shine - The face of the match does a few moves to the heel to look good.
2) Heat spot - The heel turns the momentum usually with some sort of cheating. Snow says the problem is that lately heels will do a good-looking move and the face will oversell, thus shifting the crowd to side with the heel.
3) The heel continues to beat down the face. Again, Snow implies that a lot of the time it kills the heat for the face because of the constant selling, leading to...
4) The hope spot - Where it looks like the face will bounce back and the heel cuts him off. Again, the face looks so weak at this point the fans lose interest.
5) The "double-down" - Where both guys will take a hit and stay down on the mat for a ten-count. Snow feels like this is dumb because the heel has been dealing out offense for five or six minutes but now seems as hurt as his opponent. Now he feels the crowd stops liking both workers because they both seem weak.
6) The comeback - The face fights back against a heel that will stop defending himself, and usually involves a spot off the ropes.
7) The false finishes - Snow points out that now and only now will either guy actually try to win the match. After ten minutes, only now will you see a pinfall attempt. This then leads to the finish, which at this point he says "means nothing".
Obviously he's generalizing, but he claims that "every wrestler does this". I agree with him to a point, but this is the tried and true formula that has sold thousands of tickets. I dunno. But there you go. Summary.
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Post by invaderdave on Feb 26, 2011 22:14:55 GMT -5
Or basically, "things are not being done the way that I was taught, and that confuses and infuriates me."
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Post by Andrew is Good on Feb 26, 2011 22:15:16 GMT -5
I have that kind of time, gentlemen... He starts by saying that the same match formula is being taught to every worker in the world, and because of this matches are becoming generic. It's the basic outline we've all seen a million times: 1) Babyface shine - The face of the match does a few moves to the heel to look good. 2) Heat spot - The heel turns the momentum usually with some sort of cheating. Snow says the problem is that lately heels will do a good-looking move and the face will oversell, thus shifting the crowd to side with the heel. 3) The heel continues to beat down the face. Again, Snow implies that a lot of the time it kills the heat for the face because of the constant selling, leading to... 4) The hope spot - Where it looks like the face will bounce back and the heel cuts him off. Again, the face looks so weak at this point the fans lose interest. 5) The "double-down" - Where both guys will take a hit and stay down on the mat for a ten-count. Snow feels like this is dumb because the heel has been dealing out offense for five or six minutes but now seems as hurt as his opponent. Now he feels the crowd stops liking both workers because they both seem weak. 6) The comeback - The face fights back against a heel that will stop defending himself, and usually involves a spot off the ropes. 7) The false finishes - Snow points out that now and only now will either guy actually try to win the match. After ten minutes, only now will you see a pinfall attempt. This then leads to the finish, which at this point he says "means nothing". Obviously he's generalizing, but he claims that "every wrestler does this". I agree with him to a point, but this is the tried and true formula that has sold thousands of tickets. I dunno. But there you go. Summary. His issue is that there is no why. Raven brought this up in his Secrets of the Ring, but when he did, he said, this is Wrestling 101, and was the very basic, and different things will apply in different scenarios Al's issue is why and how. It's all done as a formula, and done for no reason other then, that's the way it is. It is tried and true at times, but again, the how and why is sometimes forgotten about. Plus, other factors like the size of the guy, where they are on the card, etc. WWE is trying to get better with this, where the guys are going for covers right off the bat, that's what I find anyway. |
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Post by Andrew is Good on Feb 26, 2011 22:17:04 GMT -5
Or basically, "things are not being done the way that I was taught, and that confuses and infuriates me." That doesn't make any sense at all. His issue is with people being taught something generic. How would that confuse him? This happened in another thread where Al was taken out of context. What are people's issues with him? Mine was from the Colt Cabana shoot that he doesn't have the best teaching style, but he's definitely got the know how. |
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Feb 26, 2011 22:50:17 GMT -5
Al's watching different matches than me, but some of his points are just why I often dislike the fans more than anyone. THere's usually a cover or two during the babyface shine, and some covers while the heel is in control. In fact I think the cut off hope spot usually results in a pinfall attempt. As for fans and the heel taking over, pretty move or not if they've been watching the show there should be no reason to get behind the heel.
Now the double down segment is a good point, but sometimes you can justify it. Maybe the heel's move only partially connects while the faces really gets all of it. Sometimes though it might be better to do a high impact finisher type move to sell that idea.
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 26, 2011 22:55:12 GMT -5
I think he's mostly right, and a big problem faced today is that it's tough to do other kinds of matches.
Every company has to run so many shows, has to feature all their biggest names on so many shows, and you want to run a formula where nobody involved looks too weak or too strong. Repetition in the name of "playing it safe" follows.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Feb 27, 2011 1:57:58 GMT -5
I have that kind of time, gentlemen... He starts by saying that the same match formula is being taught to every worker in the world, and because of this matches are becoming generic. It's the basic outline we've all seen a million times: 1) Babyface shine - The face of the match does a few moves to the heel to look good. 2) Heat spot - The heel turns the momentum usually with some sort of cheating. Snow says the problem is that lately heels will do a good-looking move and the face will oversell, thus shifting the crowd to side with the heel. 3) The heel continues to beat down the face. Again, Snow implies that a lot of the time it kills the heat for the face because of the constant selling, leading to... 4) The hope spot - Where it looks like the face will bounce back and the heel cuts him off. Again, the face looks so weak at this point the fans lose interest. 5) The "double-down" - Where both guys will take a hit and stay down on the mat for a ten-count. Snow feels like this is dumb because the heel has been dealing out offense for five or six minutes but now seems as hurt as his opponent. Now he feels the crowd stops liking both workers because they both seem weak. 6) The comeback - The face fights back against a heel that will stop defending himself, and usually involves a spot off the ropes. 7) The false finishes - Snow points out that now and only now will either guy actually try to win the match. After ten minutes, only now will you see a pinfall attempt. This then leads to the finish, which at this point he says "means nothing". Obviously he's generalizing, but he claims that "every wrestler does this". I agree with him to a point, but this is the tried and true formula that has sold thousands of tickets. I dunno. But there you go. Summary. The match outline sounds spot on for a WWE style match but I have a few things I'd have to disagree with him on. 1. He's wrong about what he thinks the fans are feeling. If the fans decided that they didn't like either wrestler during the "double down" part of the match, then nobody in WWE would be popular would they? I think he's seriously over analyzing that part. 2. The "false finishes" section is NOT the only time that either wrestlers goes for a pin. I would assume that Al watches a lot of matches, why would he say something so stupid? In most matches that get a decent amount of time, wrestlers go for quick pinfalls in the beginning only to get a 1 count, get quick 2 counts in the middle, and get long two counts during the final stretch. Other than that, I'd say Al is dead on. Then again I didn't listen to the interview, just read your summary. |
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Post by A Dubya (El Hombre Muerto) on Feb 27, 2011 2:43:08 GMT -5
I listened to this a while back, when it first aired. I think Al made some good points. I don't really care about current wrestling though, so to me it's "meh".
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Goldenbane
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Post by Goldenbane on Feb 27, 2011 3:12:27 GMT -5
Not a bad interview, and he has a ton of points that he's right on and stuff...but...I can't stand the "anti-critic" stance taken. He made an alorgy like this:
Would you tell a doctor how to perform an important surgery on yourself? Then don't tell a wrestler how to perform a match.
Something like that all depends...would I dictate to a doctor how to perform a surgery? Maybe...if he pulls out 1920's technology and wants to open up my guts with me wide awake and able to feel everything...you're damn right I'm going to express my opinion on how he's operating! And if said doctor refuses to use 2011 technology and operating techniques, then I'm going to cancel my surgery and find a doctor who will do these things for me!
If this new Thor movie comes out...in which I'm expecting a comic book action movie based on my favorite comic as it's been advetised so far...and instead Thor gets butt raped by Jimmy Smitts and it's a stupid comedy...then yeah, I...the non-professional actor, non-professional director/producer/blah blah blah am going to write an angry letter/column/whatever saying how the guys that made the movie are f*** ups and should never be allowed to work in movies ever again. They didn't deliver on what they promised.
I'm not a professional wrestler, but I know getting Rock Bottomed on dog poo is stupid...and I'll bet there's probably 6 dozen pro wrestlers who'd agree with me (if not more).
My point is, just because a critic doesn't do the work he/she criticizes, doesn't mean they're opinion is invalid or instantly wrong. Sure...having worked as a pro would give their opinions more weight...but it still wouldn't make them anymore right or wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 3:18:53 GMT -5
Nitpicking about his Ebert comment, as Ebert did write a few movies.
My question about his thoughts regarding Hulk/Andre, Savage/Steamboat is what could Savage and Steamboat do to make a better match in that environment? If they tried to work their match like Hulk/Andre, it would've failed. He's not calling it a bad match or anything but they didn't have the ability to draw more fans than they did. So, what were they supposed to have done?
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Feb 27, 2011 20:32:31 GMT -5
My point is, just because a critic doesn't do the work he/she criticizes, doesn't mean they're opinion is invalid or instantly wrong. Sure...having worked as a pro would give their opinions more weight...but it still wouldn't make them anymore right or wrong. This, at least a million times. A fan pays their money for an experience that will satisfy them emotionally. A match, a storyline, a promotion may frustrate them to an extent, but there reaches a point at which the fan will simply stop paying or watching because they've lost hope in being satisfied. A good promoter who can stretch it out as long as they can, and then provide that satisfaction, will rake in the bucks for a while after providing it. WWE has been working it that way for so long, though, that the whole experience at times can feel contrived. The seven-step "formula", like the Five Moves of Doom, have become this generation's jobber match. |
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Post by lemonyellowson on Feb 27, 2011 22:00:17 GMT -5
gets a bit ranty at the end, but interesting enough
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Post by Stab Sword on Feb 27, 2011 22:13:25 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Raven told the exact same thing about matches in one of his ROH videos but gave better examples
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saintpat
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Post by saintpat on Feb 27, 2011 23:09:36 GMT -5
Pretty much every movie script follows a formula, too.
Doesn't mean all the movies are bad. Doesn't mean that none of them find original ways to adapt the story to the formula. Doesn't mean the formula doesn't get tweaked. Doesn't mean every single script follows the formula.
It just means that there is a template for drama, just as there is a template for wrestling match storytelling.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Feb 27, 2011 23:15:09 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Raven told the exact same thing about matches in one of his ROH videos but gave better examples And got less "old fogie doesn't know what he's talking about" comments. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 23:24:58 GMT -5
I'd like Al to do a follow up piece where he brings up great matches that do not follow the "seven deadly steps" and how they work. At the least, I'll try to watch matches from now and spot when people do this more closely.
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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Feb 27, 2011 23:41:04 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Raven told the exact same thing about matches in one of his ROH videos but gave better examples And got less "old fogie doesn't know what he's talking about" comments. Well Raven is more well known the Al for mic skills. |
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