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Post by Andrew is Good on Feb 27, 2011 23:57:30 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Raven told the exact same thing about matches in one of his ROH videos but gave better examples And got less "old fogie doesn't know what he's talking about" comments. That is odd though, most wrestlers usually mirror what each other said. As said before, Raven used the 7 deadly steps and talked about them, but beforehand, said it was wrestling 101, basically for beginners, and once you get that, you go onto different matches. He also talked about why the babyface shines, why the heel gets heat, how the heel gets heat, which is the heel is getting beaten down, so what does he do? He cheats to get the advantage. He doesn't out wrestle the guy, that's not very heelish. He also emphasised the heat and the comeback as the most important part, and if you're cut short on time, cut the shine out. Basically, if one were going by the 7 deadly steps and they were cut on time, they would do everything quickly, and there wouldn't be enough heat, to help with the comeback. I think that's why Sandman was so incredibly over, because all his matches were (in WWE especially) were heat and comeback. He said this on his interview, but his shine was his entrance, and I remember in his matches in WWE, when he made a comeback, the fans were going nuts. Like, Sandman, as bad of a techincal wrestler as he is, that guy knows what he's doing. So, Sandman is an example of a guy who doesn't use the 7 deadly steps, and sometimes he'll get some good offense in at the start, but he does seem to not really go by any planning. Though he has also had some bad, planned out matches in the past, but live and learn. Also, in the hope spot deal, if the babyface gets back at full strength when Raven doesn't feel the heat isn't good enough, he'll start it over again, and prolong the match.
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Post by Bald Bull on Feb 28, 2011 0:34:39 GMT -5
The reason I'm not a fan of Al's shoot interviews is that he has nothing but complaints for today's wrestling, because it isn't exactly how it was in the 1980s.
Take for example his "There are no smart marks" stance on fans. You can't be smartened up to the business, you have to be a naive idiot to suspend your disbelief over a wrestling match. But in all actuality you couldn't be interested in a wrestling match if you weren't able to suspend your disbelief in a match. He can explain what a hope spot is to a stupid mark in a shoot interview, but they couldn't possibly be able to comprehend what a hope spot is, because they never did what he did.
I cannot stand any worker that feels he's more important than the fans. Wrestling needs both fans and workers, equally, to work together to be successful.
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Post by héad.casé on Feb 28, 2011 6:03:57 GMT -5
I have that kind of time, gentlemen... He starts by saying that the same match formula is being taught to every worker in the world, and because of this matches are becoming generic. It's the basic outline we've all seen a million times: 1) Babyface shine - The face of the match does a few moves to the heel to look good. 2) Heat spot - The heel turns the momentum usually with some sort of cheating. Snow says the problem is that lately heels will do a good-looking move and the face will oversell, thus shifting the crowd to side with the heel. 3) The heel continues to beat down the face. Again, Snow implies that a lot of the time it kills the heat for the face because of the constant selling, leading to... 4) The hope spot - Where it looks like the face will bounce back and the heel cuts him off. Again, the face looks so weak at this point the fans lose interest. 5) The "double-down" - Where both guys will take a hit and stay down on the mat for a ten-count. Snow feels like this is dumb because the heel has been dealing out offense for five or six minutes but now seems as hurt as his opponent. Now he feels the crowd stops liking both workers because they both seem weak. 6) The comeback - The face fights back against a heel that will stop defending himself, and usually involves a spot off the ropes. 7) The false finishes - Snow points out that now and only now will either guy actually try to win the match. After ten minutes, only now will you see a pinfall attempt. This then leads to the finish, which at this point he says "means nothing". Obviously he's generalizing, but he claims that "every wrestler does this". I agree with him to a point, but this is the tried and true formula that has sold thousands of tickets. I dunno. But there you go. Summary. I was taught these seven things in a seminar with 'Showstealer' Alex Shane four months after I started training. Obviously you don't have to use all seven things in a match plan, but you do need to have the shine, heel cut off, hope spot, heat and babyface comeback in there.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Feb 28, 2011 14:56:18 GMT -5
The reason I'm not a fan of Al's shoot interviews is that he has nothing but complaints for today's wrestling, because it isn't exactly how it was in the 1980s. Take for example his "There are no smart marks" stance on fans. You can't be smartened up to the business, you have to be a naive idiot to suspend your disbelief over a wrestling match. But in all actuality you couldn't be interested in a wrestling match if you weren't able to suspend your disbelief in a match. He can explain what a hope spot is to a stupid mark in a shoot interview, but they couldn't possibly be able to comprehend what a hope spot is, because they never did what he did. I cannot stand any worker that feels he's more important than the fans. Wrestling needs both fans and workers, equally, to work together to be successful. He hates the term because it's contradictory. You literally, can't be smart to something, and a mark. It's a dark light, a cold fire, etc. A mark is someone being tricked into believing something, so if you're smart to that, you're not really a mark after all.
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Post by Bald Bull on Feb 28, 2011 20:51:36 GMT -5
The reason I'm not a fan of Al's shoot interviews is that he has nothing but complaints for today's wrestling, because it isn't exactly how it was in the 1980s. Take for example his "There are no smart marks" stance on fans. You can't be smartened up to the business, you have to be a naive idiot to suspend your disbelief over a wrestling match. But in all actuality you couldn't be interested in a wrestling match if you weren't able to suspend your disbelief in a match. He can explain what a hope spot is to a stupid mark in a shoot interview, but they couldn't possibly be able to comprehend what a hope spot is, because they never did what he did. I cannot stand any worker that feels he's more important than the fans. Wrestling needs both fans and workers, equally, to work together to be successful. He hates the term because it's contradictory. You literally, can't be smart to something, and a mark. It's a dark light, a cold fire, etc. A mark is someone being tricked into believing something, so if you're smart to that, you're not really a mark after all. My point is, you can have flames that are hundreds of degrees cooler than another. A light that isn't as bright as another. A mark that isn't as naive or stupid as you think. He has no idea what its like to be a fan in this generation because the fans have evolved so far from when he was a fan
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efarns
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,273
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Post by efarns on Feb 28, 2011 22:12:46 GMT -5
Al has no right to criticize internet fans since he has never been one.
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