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Post by avenger on Dec 25, 2011 20:39:50 GMT -5
In the mid 90s, how many non kliq members went into feuds with members of the kliq and came out looking anywhere near as good as when they went in? If you exclude guys like Taker. Hart and Sid who were already over before the Kliq rose, not many. Guys would start rising up the card, enter into a program with a kliq member, lose then that's it for them, it happened to Vader and many others. People will make excuses, say none of them could draw, or they worked stiff, smelled bad or had an attitude problem, but if the kliq didn't like you that was it for your chances. Goldust - but Razor was supposed to win the feud (but not regain the title) in a Miami Backlot Brawl at Wrestlemania, only for Razor to get himself suspended, and Roddy Piper wedged into the feud instead.
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Post by diegorivera on Dec 25, 2011 20:49:49 GMT -5
Shawn's politicking hurt Vader a lot, but by the time HBK "lost his smile," Vader was climbing up the card again. Considering it's widely believed that Vince wanted to put Vader over Michaels before the latter complained and got the finish changed I doubt that his WCW run at the top soured Vince on Vader that much. The Kuwait indecent, mounting injuries, weight gain and the fact that Vader wouldn't loosen up in the ring, (working stiff if fine when both guys are in agreement; pummeling a guy half your size because you refuse to work your punches is unprofessional, no matter how many puro marks go for it,) is what really destroyed his run.
With the likes of Kane around, the WWF had little need of Vader in the state he was in at the time.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Dec 27, 2011 22:54:31 GMT -5
First off, I've never understood why everyone believes that Hogan buried Vader in WCW. It's like they read some book where it says he was underutilized or something. Did anyone even watch that feud? It was one of the best that WCW had provided in a long time. The only thing anyone ever mentions from this feud is how Hogan no-sold the powerbomb. They never mention how Vader kicked out of the legdrop at ONE for God's sake...or that moments later he had Hogan beat for the title, except the ref was knocked out (literally had him pinned for a good 10 count). So Vader still jobbed right? Wrong. Flair gets involved and gets Vader DQed. Now why is that considered burying someone? Even the subsequent matches, Vader was in a brutal leather strap match, lost a tag match to Hogan when Flair was pinned and then lost a cage match when Hogan escaped. That by no means made Vader look like some chump who couldn't hang with Hogan, hell they made him look like his equal in almost every way, except Flair kept getting involved. Yes, he lost all those matches, but he was still made to look great in every way. They even teased a Vader face turn, before the Orndorff incident likely caused him his job. Would it have been good for him to win the title? Sure! But does him not winning it automatically classify him as buried? Absolutely not.
The same applies when he went to WWF. I'll be the first to admit that I hated HBK during this period...his matches were great...but having Jose follow him around irked the hell out of me. However, Vader worked one title program with Shawn. Almost everyone else Shawn feuded with during his first title run also only had one program, so it wasn't like he got screwed in that aspect. And maybe it's just me...but out of all the PPV matches Shawn had during this time, Summerslam was one of the weakest. Besides, didn't Vader win the match both through count out and through DQ, so if anyone looked weak there...it was Shawn. Also let's remember that Vader would go onto beat Michaels in a tag match several weeks later. Yeah it's a tag match, but the point still stands...he wasn't jobbed out to high heaven.
So big deal...he didn't win the damn belt. What's that prove? He was still getting TV time and as was mentioned before he still had several opportunities to main event in non-title situations. Blaming Shawn doesn't make sense to me since the whole "I'm a piece of s***" thing happened well after Shawn had retired. So why do I think Vader didn't work well?
Let's honestly break it down:
1. Monster heels never last very long; Vader was lucky to get 2years with the company, much like similar heels; Bundy, Umaga...they had the same flaws.
2. Overshadowed by other heels; I can't speak for everyone, but in 1996, I would rather watch Goldust or Mankind. Vader didn't have a great character outside of Cornette being the mouthpiece. He didn't have what it took to reinvent himself like other guys could.
3. Stiff worker; Stiff to me is the same as green...if you don't know how to "work" then you shouldn't be on national TV. I get the "old-school" approach, but wrestling was a very different game even from 1986. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to work with him, if that was the case.
4. Bad attitude backstage; Shawn gets a lot of heat because he carried the belt, as does almost every guy who carried the belt...I guarantee if Vader won, we'd be hearing stories about how much of a prima donna he was, but since he wasn't "the guy" then no one cares. He's still lucky he didn't get canned for the Kuwait incident, that was completely uncalled for.
Overall, I didn't mind Vader...he was decent to watch, but by no means did I ever consider the guy God's gift to monster heels, which is the perception I get from on here, no offense. Going to All Japan was the best thing that could've happened to him from what little I have seen of his work there. What's really eerie is how he was awarded "most improved" by the Observer in 1999, despite being a 14 year vet. I don't think there's really any reason to look back on this guy and say "what could have been?". Is anyone really going to complain about how crappy 1996 and 1997 were because Vader wasn't the top guy? That's ridiculous! Anyways...just my two cents.
*Also, I didn't mean to bombard you with a bunch of details, but some people really need to remember what actually happened.
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Post by mauled on Dec 28, 2011 12:15:36 GMT -5
They improved business how exactly? By walking off and faking injury rather than lose a title as Shawn did time and time again? By being some of the lowest drawing champions the WWF had seen for decades? At least Bret was popular outside of North America to redeem him. How would I have booked things differently? If a new guy seems to be getting over, I'd give them a chance to show what they can do with a run with a belt rather than using them as a means to get a title from one member of a group to another. Likewise with people who've been over elsewhere like Vader and Douglas... At the very least they can't draw any worse than the Kliq did. Nobody is suggesting Candido or Hughes would ever be world champions, but people like Vader, Bam Bam, Douglas and so on who had potential that was never fulfilled in the WWF. The lowest financial in the company's history was in 1997, when WCW signed most of the kliq away. Vader had a ton of big matches, high profile feuds, ppv spots. A 2 or 3-year sustained monster push would have been bad for business. They did need to build new stars. I don't get building the company around Vader at that point, that would have been a huge mistake. He was a menacing heel who couldn't quite get over the top (like 99% of heels). I would have personally cut him lose a year earlier and skipped the patriotic babyface vader phase, but even then, his role was to put over younger talent (his last TV match was jobbing to edge). You sure I thought that was 96 which was why Vince offered that deal for Bret to come back (which he couldnt afford) as opposed to going to WCW. Now as Champions maybe Im wrong but I thought Diesal was the worst followed by Shawn though to be fair he did have to go up against the NWO and Hogans heel turn
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