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Post by jadison on Dec 27, 2011 21:09:04 GMT -5
But the worst thing, for me at least, is that Miz literally does not wrestle. Watch the next Miz match, and count how many wrestling moves he actually does. I'm willing to bet it's less than 5. Last time I counted it was 2: an armlock and a DDT. The rest of the match was literally just punches and kicks. Not to entirely derail the thread but: that's the the WWE's stylethese days. Every one gets 2-5 spots and a finisher and they string it together with a bunch of punching. That's just how it goes. the WWE is Streetfighter to ROH's Tekken. Miz does the Neckbreaker/Backbreaker combo, the jumping clothesline in the corner, DDT, and the SKF (though he's done a few snapmare drivers to Kofi). Zack Ryder doesn't even get that much, he's pretty much Knees in the corner, bootwash, RR. Cena gets his five moves of doom but that's pretty much just one spot. Hell even people like DBD and Punk do it. It's not because that's all they've got it's just all 'E wants to see on TV. The difference is that the only time Miz gets more than 3 moves worth of offense booked it usually a tag match or a gimmick match and so his offense is a chair or a ladder or a cage spot. Miz rarely gets 30 minutes VS Punk no stipulations. This isn't true, its oversimplifying. People have their movesets, but what goes on around those moves it where a wrestler shows his creativity. Miz is definitely one of the worst offenders at doing nothing but punches and restholds. He's terrible in the ring at least half the time, he's not even average like people like to say. If he's in there with a guy he can throw around a bit like Misterio he's better. But the fact remains, he's a 225 pounder that wrestles like he's Kevin Nash or something, he sucks
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Dec 27, 2011 21:14:26 GMT -5
Morrison's overness varied because the WWE was constantly yo-yo pushing him. He was over as hell during his feud with Sheamus last year, and then not so much once he got into that losing streak after his injury return. Whereas Miz has been pretty much made constantly relevant most of his career, so it was much easier for him to stay over. And as Michelle McCool can tell you, constancy = overness- no exceptions. How does Michelle McCool have anything to do with Miz or Morrison?
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 27, 2011 21:20:22 GMT -5
And as Michelle McCool can tell you, constancy = overness- no exceptions. How does Michelle McCool have anything to do with Miz or Morrison? You can be booked strongly and stay relevant, but it's no guarantee you'll ever be over. I actually quite liked McCool, but she was a heat vacuum. Johnny Nitro 2004-2007 - consistently in the IC and tag title scene, pushed strongly, and as over as Rob Conway. It took a repackaging and a pairing with Miz to get him over fully. And let's not forget the guy who spent 18 months having his ass handed to him by Hardy, Rey, Show, Orton and Undertaker with only a few scarce victories to speak of. That guy in New Nexus and Straight Edge Society. He sure struggled to stay over, huh? Good booking, bad booking and yo-yo booking can make or break guys, but none guarantee success or failure. Some can retain heat even when booked poorly, others can't even when booked strong.
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Post by frogsplash45 on Dec 27, 2011 21:29:06 GMT -5
In-ring ability aside, did Chris Masters, Drew McIntyre, or MVP ever drawn the kind of heat that Miz does?
The guy has the ability to crawl under people's skin in ways other can't, evident by his reaction last night and many of the posts in this thread.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Dec 27, 2011 21:35:21 GMT -5
How does Michelle McCool have anything to do with Miz or Morrison? You can be booked strongly and stay relevant, but it's no guarantee you'll ever be over. I actually quite liked McCool, but she was a heat vacuum. But Morrison and Miz's situation was nothing like McCool's, so that's a bad example. Both Morrison and Miz were over in 2010, while McCool was never all that over. I'm not saying that being booked strongly grantees getting over. I'm saying the reason Morrison's overness varied in the last year was because of his yo-yo booking, because he was over when pushed and not so over when constantly jobbing. And Miz has managed to stay over because the WWE makes sure he constantly stays relevant on the show. I'm not trying to make generalizations about booking as a whole. I'm talking about 2 specific people.
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Post by jadison on Dec 27, 2011 21:37:17 GMT -5
In-ring ability aside, did Chris Masters, Drew McIntyre, or MVP ever drawn the kind of heat that Miz does? The guy has the ability to crawl under people's skin in ways other can't, evident by his reaction last night and many of the posts in this thread. Yep. You're right. He does get heat. I just wish he was as good in the ring as the average Natural Born Thriller. I suppose it's all part of their evil plan. You may have won this round, Miz...
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 27, 2011 22:04:21 GMT -5
You can be booked strongly and stay relevant, but it's no guarantee you'll ever be over. I actually quite liked McCool, but she was a heat vacuum. But Morrison and Miz's situation was nothing like McCool's, so that's a bad example. Both Morrison and Miz were over in 2010, while McCool was never all that over. I'm not saying that being booked strongly grantees getting over. I'm saying the reason Morrison's overness varied in the last year was because of his yo-yo booking, because he was over when pushed and not so over when constantly jobbing. And Miz has managed to stay over because the WWE makes sure he constantly stays relevant on the show. I'm not trying to make generalizations about booking as a whole. I'm talking about 2 specific people. But was Morrison's problem the booking, or himself? As good as he is in the ring, he's got no chance of getting himself over out of it until he learns how to cut a decent promo. Since he was never going to re-sign with the company, there was no incentive for them to push him, and the one thing keeping him over was taken away.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Dec 27, 2011 22:14:23 GMT -5
But Morrison and Miz's situation was nothing like McCool's, so that's a bad example. Both Morrison and Miz were over in 2010, while McCool was never all that over. I'm not saying that being booked strongly grantees getting over. I'm saying the reason Morrison's overness varied in the last year was because of his yo-yo booking, because he was over when pushed and not so over when constantly jobbing. And Miz has managed to stay over because the WWE makes sure he constantly stays relevant on the show. I'm not trying to make generalizations about booking as a whole. I'm talking about 2 specific people. But was Morrison's problem the booking, or himself? As good as he is in the ring, he's got no chance of getting himself over out of it until he learns how to cut a decent promo. Since he was never going to re-sign with the company, there was no incentive for them to push him, and the one thing keeping him over was taken away. Well like you said, when the WWE took away his push, he stopped being over. It's true that he wasn't going to be getting himself over on his promo ability, and the WWE needed to show off his in-ring ability to make the crowd care about. But I don't see that necessarily as such a bad thing. It's not that different from Miz's situation, as he likely wouldn't be very over if the WWE didn't give him any mic time.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 27, 2011 22:21:49 GMT -5
But was Morrison's problem the booking, or himself? As good as he is in the ring, he's got no chance of getting himself over out of it until he learns how to cut a decent promo. Since he was never going to re-sign with the company, there was no incentive for them to push him, and the one thing keeping him over was taken away. Well like you said, when the WWE took away his push, he stopped being over. It's true that he wasn't going to be getting himself over on his promo ability, and the WWE needed to show off his in-ring ability to make the crowd care about. But I don't see that necessarily as such a bad thing. It's not that different from Miz's situation, as he likely wouldn't be very over if the WWE didn't give him any mic time. Miz is generally pretty good at getting a reaction from the crowd during his matches though. His talent doesn't really lie in technical wrestling, but he knows how to work the crowd.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Dec 27, 2011 22:22:43 GMT -5
Not to entirely derail the thread but: that's the the WWE's stylethese days. Every one gets 2-5 spots and a finisher and they string it together with a bunch of punching. That's just how it goes. the WWE is Streetfighter to ROH's Tekken. Miz does the Neckbreaker/Backbreaker combo, the jumping clothesline in the corner, DDT, and the SKF (though he's done a few snapmare drivers to Kofi). Zack Ryder doesn't even get that much, he's pretty much Knees in the corner, bootwash, RR. Cena gets his five moves of doom but that's pretty much just one spot. Hell even people like DBD and Punk do it. It's not because that's all they've got it's just all 'E wants to see on TV. The difference is that the only time Miz gets more than 3 moves worth of offense booked it usually a tag match or a gimmick match and so his offense is a chair or a ladder or a cage spot. Miz rarely gets 30 minutes VS Punk no stipulations. This isn't true, its oversimplifying. People have their movesets, but what goes on around those moves it where a wrestler shows his creativity. Miz is definitely one of the worst offenders at doing nothing but punches and restholds. He's terrible in the ring at least half the time, he's not even average like people like to say. If he's in there with a guy he can throw around a bit like Misterio he's better. But the fact remains, he's a 225 pounder that wrestles like he's Kevin Nash or something, he sucks Miz doesn't wrestle like a super heavyweight, they mostly throw people around, Miz tends to try to drive people down
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Post by Nic Nemeth on Dec 28, 2011 0:03:44 GMT -5
TBH, Miz strikes me as a guy who even if booked with an amazing moveset, looks far too small to ever employ it in a believable way.
Also his match with Cena back on RAW in 2009 was amazing.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Dec 28, 2011 0:25:06 GMT -5
Not to entirely derail the thread but: that's the the WWE's stylethese days. Every one gets 2-5 spots and a finisher and they string it together with a bunch of punching. That's just how it goes. the WWE is Streetfighter to ROH's Tekken. Miz does the Neckbreaker/Backbreaker combo, the jumping clothesline in the corner, DDT, and the SKF (though he's done a few snapmare drivers to Kofi). Zack Ryder doesn't even get that much, he's pretty much Knees in the corner, bootwash, RR. Cena gets his five moves of doom but that's pretty much just one spot. Hell even people like DBD and Punk do it. It's not because that's all they've got it's just all 'E wants to see on TV. The difference is that the only time Miz gets more than 3 moves worth of offense booked it usually a tag match or a gimmick match and so his offense is a chair or a ladder or a cage spot. Miz rarely gets 30 minutes VS Punk no stipulations. This isn't true, its oversimplifying. People have their movesets, but what goes on around those moves it where a wrestler shows his creativity. Miz is definitely one of the worst offenders at doing nothing but punches and restholds. He's terrible in the ring at least half the time, he's not even average like people like to say. If he's in there with a guy he can throw around a bit like Misterio he's better. But the fact remains, he's a 225 pounder that wrestles like he's Kevin Nash or something, he sucks Thank you, I'm so tired of hearing that people hate the Miz because he's such a good heel. We're all "smart fans" who know it's a work, I don't like watching the Miz because he's a sucky wrestler, period. He's like a CAW that some idiot frat boy who loves the Rock would come up with, his catchphrase is not clever and is something anyone could have come up with, his name means nothing other than it's short for Mike Mizanin which is hardly ever said on air so a lot of people probably just think it's a random, stupid name which it basically is. The only reason he got such a big push is because he's "so great in media appearances" although in my opinion that's part of what makes him a terrible heel. Can you think of any other heels that go on talk shows and tell everybody how fake wrestling is and how nice a guy they are in real life? Neither can I, and it's because that sucks and so does the Miz. I digress though, the reason he got such a big push is because he's from MTV's Real World/Road Rules and people at WWE probably thought that was still really popular and found out the hard way that it isn't when Miz's title reign flopped hard. That's why he was deservedly pushed down the card, but not far enough. The best thing Miz has ever done is get beat up by R-Truth the other night. Oh, and before anyone tries to say so, I am not showing "irrational dislike" for the Miz, I am not currently upset or angry in any way, I'm simply stating an opinion. The end.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Dec 28, 2011 9:16:36 GMT -5
This isn't true, its oversimplifying. People have their movesets, but what goes on around those moves it where a wrestler shows his creativity. Miz is definitely one of the worst offenders at doing nothing but punches and restholds. He's terrible in the ring at least half the time, he's not even average like people like to say. If he's in there with a guy he can throw around a bit like Misterio he's better. But the fact remains, he's a 225 pounder that wrestles like he's Kevin Nash or something, he sucks Thank you, I'm so tired of hearing that people hate the Miz because he's such a good heel. We're all "smart fans" who know it's a work, I don't like watching the Miz because he's a sucky wrestler, period. He's like a CAW that some idiot frat boy who loves the Rock would come up with, his catchphrase is not clever and is something anyone could have come up with, his name means nothing other than it's short for Mike Mizanin which is hardly ever said on air so a lot of people probably just think it's a random, stupid name which it basically is. The only reason he got such a big push is because he's "so great in media appearances" although in my opinion that's part of what makes him a terrible heel. Can you think of any other heels that go on talk shows and tell everybody how fake wrestling is and how nice a guy they are in real life? Neither can I, and it's because that sucks and so does the Miz. I digress though, the reason he got such a big push is because he's from MTV's Real World/Road Rules and people at WWE probably thought that was still really popular and found out the hard way that it isn't when Miz's title reign flopped hard. That's why he was deservedly pushed down the card, but not far enough. The best thing Miz has ever done is get beat up by R-Truth the other night. Oh, and before anyone tries to say so, I am not showing "irrational dislike" for the Miz, I am not currently upset or angry in any way, I'm simply stating an opinion. The end. Hate the Miz character, hate the way he's booked, that's fair enough. But the OP pretty much went "Does Cena hate Mike Mizanin as a person? Because I know I do!"
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trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,601
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Post by trollrogue on Dec 28, 2011 9:33:23 GMT -5
Thank you, I'm so tired of hearing that people hate the Miz because he's such a good heel. We're all "smart fans" who know it's a work, I don't like watching the Miz because he's a sucky wrestler, period. I'm tired of hearing the false "Miz is a sucky wrestler" lies. Exhibit A: If I could post up non-WWEFannation videos, I'd have at least 5-10 more to show. He is maybe average, but "sucky"? No. Not even close. Keep It Simple, Stupid. The mantra for anybody who's intelligent and knows that the average fan won't really latch onto a gimmick unless it is easy to grasp. Are we supposed to fault the Miz because his gimmick works now? Sounds like his heel act worked on you, mark! As many people explained earlier in this thread, the man's been in the company for 6 years now. He earned his push, and worked his way up from the quagmire that was the Diva's Search and WWECW to get the spot he has now. That's not being 'pushed to the moon' no matter how much you dislike the man. Just as most people who despise Cena will admit that he's to be respected, the exact same can be said of the Miz. If you don't respect him, you are an embarrassment to the IWC who make us all look like uninformed marks, rather than smart marks. Just my opinion. 1- Everyone knows that wrestling is scripted. But it's awesome that you somehow blame Miz for ruining kayfabe! 2- Jericho did it all the time, or did you not see his run on Dancing With The Stars where his smile had to be surgically removed, even when he was eliminated? Not to mention heels like The Big Show, HHH, The Great Khali on SNL not being heel-y, every new World Title holder going on Late/Tonight shows to promote the latest WWE ppv (again not being heel-y). But sure, let's single out Miz for doing it because-- well, I'm sure you have a reason other than pure bias, right? Again, you have been worked, mark! The sign of a great heel-- getting people to say 'This guy sucks!" But nooooo, it can't be because Miz is a successful heel, he has 'Mike The Mizanin heat' which is not 'real heat', eh? lolz The only thing I actually read in that last paragraph was 'irrational dislike', which I think hit the nail on the head. Let's just pretend that Miz's impossibly hot supermodel Playboy centerfold girlfriend just happened to start dating him because she was somehow fooled by his undeserved push. Let's pretend that Miz's main event status in the WWE is a fluke. Let's pretend that live crowds continually boo Miz and respond to his promos because of some other intangible reason rather than Miz actually having great promo skills. You people have yet to explain why he's still employed by the WWE if he's so 'sucky' in all aspects of his character. By all means, someone please make an actual argument against Miz's success other than "I don't like the man therefore he must be the worst WWE Superstar of all time." (This post is not meant to be taken as a flame against anyone, just got a little ridiculous in here with the fallacious arguments against The Miz being a legit performer)
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Post by Chronos on Dec 28, 2011 10:42:15 GMT -5
Can you think of any other heels that go on talk shows and tell everybody how fake wrestling is and how nice a guy they are in real life? Chris Jericho? I'm pretty sure he's done it.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 28, 2011 12:17:39 GMT -5
I have to say that I don't like Miz, but to be honest, it's the kind of heat that I want to see him lose and get humiliated, not the kind that I want to see him gone (like I have for Michael Cole). Seeing Miz get his comeuppance works for me.
That and I love his intro, so I'd be sad if he was gone.
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Post by breakdownthewalls on Dec 28, 2011 13:26:56 GMT -5
"By all means, someone please make an actual argument against Miz's success other than "I don't like the man therefore he must be the worst WWE Superstar of all time.""
I don't even know where to start on this. I don't like him, but here's some things we can all objectively agree on:
1) He's in the bottom 25% of the WWE roster in terms of wrestling skills. I'd put him lower, but no way is he above this.
2) He won the WWE Title, the most prestigious title in wrestling. There are WWE legends who never even touched that belt, but Miz got to hold it and even retain it at Wrestlemania.
3) He's been given chances nobody else on the roster has. The "Miz Experiment" should have been over long ago, but it's still going on. Most guys dream of hitting the main event, for some reason Miz is constantly up there, even when guys like Cena and Orton slide down to the midcard every so often. Hell, he's more of a main eventer right now than Cena is. How sad is that?
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 28, 2011 14:05:49 GMT -5
"By all means, someone please make an actual argument against Miz's success other than "I don't like the man therefore he must be the worst WWE Superstar of all time."" I don't even know where to start on this. I don't like him, but here's some things we can all objectively agree on: 1) He's in the bottom 25% of the WWE roster in terms of wrestling skills. I'd put him lower, but no way is he above this. 2) He won the WWE Title, the most prestigious title in wrestling. There are WWE legends who never even touched that belt, but Miz got to hold it and even retain it at Wrestlemania. 3) He's been given chances nobody else on the roster has. The "Miz Experiment" should have been over long ago, but it's still going on. Most guys dream of hitting the main event, for some reason Miz is constantly up there, even when guys like Cena and Orton slide down to the midcard every so often. Hell, he's more of a main eventer right now than Cena is. How sad is that? Not very sad at all considering that guys get pushed over guys who are more talented than them all the time. The Miz has what WWE is looking for. That's why they push him, simple as that. Also, to say that he has been given chances that NOBODY on the roster have been given is just ridiculous.
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HBL
Unicron
This is what yoga does to you.
Posts: 3,196
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Post by HBL on Dec 28, 2011 14:15:58 GMT -5
2) He won the WWE Title, the most prestigious title in wrestling. There are WWE legends who never even touched that belt, but Miz got to hold it and even retain it at Wrestlemania. So what? I hate it when people bring up this 'legends' fact.Miz has worked his ass off for years to get to that spot.Maybe those legends made effort as much as Miz,or even more.But what matters is,Miz has deserved it and the company has agreed to let him roll with the title,and it was an awesome run. On the topic,as far as I know Cena hangs out with Miz in real life,let alone hating.The thing you're trying to do here is ''I hate him and I want to bring it up with different facts each time I open a hate thread!''
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 28, 2011 14:24:10 GMT -5
The thing you're trying to do here is ''I hate him and I want to bring it up with different facts each time I open a hate thread!'' Yeah, I'm not trying gang up on you, OP, but I kinda get the feeling that you just made this thread as a cover for you to proclaim your hate for the Miz. Now, if you want to make a thread about hating someone, that's your business. Just be honest about it.
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