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Post by kyromax on Dec 24, 2011 20:31:15 GMT -5
You can't have your three biggest stars all as faces (Orton, Punk, Cena).
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Dec 24, 2011 21:14:05 GMT -5
from late 87 to early 89 the WWF's biggest stars were Hogan, Savage and Warrior, all faces
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xxshoyuweeniexx
King Koopa
Going Big and Saying That
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Member is Online
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Dec 24, 2011 21:39:17 GMT -5
from late 87 to early 89 the WWF's biggest stars were Hogan, Savage and Warrior, all faces And they had guys like Piper, DiBiase, and Roberts to bounce off of. But Miz, Del Rio, Ziggler, Barrett, Cody? Not even in their league.
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Post by IMPRESSIVE knightwing1047 on Dec 24, 2011 21:42:02 GMT -5
from late 87 to early 89 the WWF's biggest stars were Hogan, Savage and Warrior, all faces Very very true! They had monster heels to go with them too though. Million Dollar Man, Andre, Sgt. Slaughter, King Kong Bundy, Jake the Snake... these guys were all mega-star household names too. There's really no one like that nowadays unfortunately. I think the dynamic of being a heel must be so different now. But to me, it would be a challenge to see what I could get over. You'd have to push yourself! I really think Ziggler's the best (#)heel they've got right now. I'd really love to see them expand upon the other heels, but kinda give them a little bit of freedom!
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Dec 24, 2011 21:42:58 GMT -5
from late 87 to early 89 the WWF's biggest stars were Hogan, Savage and Warrior, all faces And they had guys like Piper, DiBiase, and Roberts to bounce off of. But Miz, Del Rio, Ziggler, Barrett, Cody? Not even in their league. Roberts was a face for most of that period as well(at least from Mania 4-7) and Piper was gone from like Mania 2 to Mania 5 where he was a face. WWF heels at the time were Dibiase, a guy always trying to buy his way to victories, an obviously past his prime Andre, Rick Rude and the Honky Tonk Man Savage's feuds while he was champ after Dibiase? Bad News Brown who did about nothing where people could see him and the Twin Towers when the Big Bossman was at his fattest .
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 24, 2011 21:46:02 GMT -5
It's really a shame because I think there's so much potential they're wasting with Wade Barrett and Dolph Ziggler. Wade Barrett could have been HUGE if they didn't have Cena go all "lol, this stip is a joke, let me HULKARAPADOO UP and ruin a rising star". Both have huge potential, but we are talking about the WWE here. The company was built on feeding the heel of the week to the babyface champion. The only time it was ever any different was the Reign of Terror. I love Dolph, the guy is outstanding, but Miz has the one thing Dolph has never had - consistent heel heat, which is why he still has Vickie as a crutch.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Dec 24, 2011 21:47:18 GMT -5
It's really a shame because I think there's so much potential they're wasting with Wade Barrett and Dolph Ziggler. Wade Barrett could have been HUGE if they didn't have Cena go all "lol, this stip is a joke, let me HULKARAPADOO UP and ruin a rising star". Both have huge potential, but we are talking about the WWE here. The company was built on feeding the heel of the week to the babyface champion. The only time it was ever any different was the Reign of Terror. I love Dolph, the guy is outstanding, but Miz has the one thing Dolph has never had - consistent heel heat, which is why he still has Vickie as a crutch. managers aren't a crutch to a good heel, they a vital organ sometimes
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Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
Posts: 16,460
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Post by Rican on Dec 24, 2011 21:47:50 GMT -5
There is potential though. Cody and Wade are both fantastic and hopefully will get even more of a push soon.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 24, 2011 22:01:58 GMT -5
Both have huge potential, but we are talking about the WWE here. The company was built on feeding the heel of the week to the babyface champion. The only time it was ever any different was the Reign of Terror. I love Dolph, the guy is outstanding, but Miz has the one thing Dolph has never had - consistent heel heat, which is why he still has Vickie as a crutch. managers aren't a crutch to a good heel, they a vital organ sometimes True, but I would argue Dolph has outgrown the need for Vickie. They paired her up with him because he wasn't over at all, and was a lousy promo. Now he's starting to get over and has improved in leaps and bounds on the mic, time to let him shine on his own accord.
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Post by The Legendary Ring Troll {BLM} on Dec 24, 2011 22:22:37 GMT -5
The company was built on feeding the heel of the week to the babyface champion. The only time it was ever any different was the Reign of Terror. THIS! This notion that you NEED huge heels seems to be a new one to me. I mean, I LOVE Cody, Ziggler, Barrett and Henry, very happy to see Henry get his long reign. But, the entire purpose of the heel is to lose to the face in the end. Triple H seemed to change this mindset somehow. Wrestling had never been about that. All the big, long champions were face. Longest reigning heel champs? Billy Graham (296 days), Yokozuna (280 days) and JBL (280 days), according to the ever vigilant Wikipedia. Three. One every generation, it seems. And all under a year. Triple H's longest? 210. In 2008. Reign of terror indeed..... The face of the company is a face for a reason. Heels are built up strong only to lose to the face. Then, if need be, built up again. Rinse and repeat. Cena troll face here.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Dec 24, 2011 22:37:13 GMT -5
The company was built on feeding the heel of the week to the babyface champion. The only time it was ever any different was the Reign of Terror. THIS! This notion that you NEED huge heels seems to be a new one to me. I mean, I LOVE Cody, Ziggler, Barrett and Henry, very happy to see Henry get his long reign. But, the entire purpose of the heel is to lose to the face in the end. Triple H seemed to change this mindset somehow. Wrestling had never been about that. All the big, long champions were face. Longest reigning heel champs? Billy Graham (296 days), Yokozuna (280 days) and JBL (280 days), according to the ever vigilant Wikipedia. Three. One every generation, it seems. And all under a year. Triple H's longest? 210. In 2008. Reign of terror indeed..... The face of the company is a face for a reason. Heels are built up strong only to lose to the face. Then, if need be, built up again. Rinse and repeat. Cena troll face here. most of the people who post on the net(I won't say IWC) seem to be very wedded to the idea of the "chase" where the face is the challenger. Despite the fact monster faces have been able to put every company that didn't use a monster face out of business overall. It took the greatest heel champ of all time, Ric Flair to make NWA able to even slightly hold on against Hulk Hogan and the WWF. As for the Reign of Terror Hunter's 280(it was with the world title) reign was included in that. Before that reign HBK had held the belt 28 days ending a Hunter reign of 76 days. Trips regained the belt 84 days after losing it to Goldberg and held it 91 days. All in all from September 2 2002 when it was created to April 3 2005 Hunter held that belt 616 days, his opponents 294 with a vacated period that took a double pinfall to accur.
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Post by derangedhermit on Dec 24, 2011 23:20:15 GMT -5
It's really a shame because I think there's so much potential they're wasting with Wade Barrett and Dolph Ziggler. Wade Barrett could have been HUGE if they didn't have Cena go all "lol, this stip is a joke, let me HULKARAPADOO UP and ruin a rising star". Both have huge potential, but we are talking about the WWE here. The company was built on feeding the heel of the week to the babyface champion. The only time it was ever any different was the Reign of Terror. I agree, but the thing is that Cena basically makes the heels look like a joke. How are they supposed to get any heat at all when Cena destroys them effortlessly? Even Hogan has managed to sell a beatdown for more than a week once in his life.
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Post by Nic Nemeth on Dec 24, 2011 23:38:41 GMT -5
It's hilarious that the Top 5 heels in WWE are Johnny Ace (a general manager), Michael Cole (a commentator), Vickie Guerrero (a manager), Mark Henry (injured), and Kane (who just returned from injury).
Luckily WWE has been using Orton to build up this next wave of heels (Cody, Ziggler, Barrett).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2011 23:45:07 GMT -5
If the great heels of the past were around today, they'd be getting jobbed the hell out too since there's so many PPVs and no jobber squashes to fill the card. Instead all the contracted guys have to take turns being the jobber.
Win rate on those heels wasn't really very good in the big matches either. Only difference is you'd see a guy like Ted Dibiase beat some jobbers (and then a really big win, beating Ronnie Garvin in the main event of prime time or something), then lose once on PPV instead of losing in the tag match of the week, beating Kofi Kingston, losing a triple threat, then jobbing on the PPV....then repeat.
Sound about right?
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Post by jadison on Dec 25, 2011 0:39:27 GMT -5
I don't get the Del Rio hate, he's a really entertaining guy to watch. The facial expressions and the bit where he acts classy to hide his barbaric tendences are both awesome. My problem with Del Rio is that his act hasn't really changed wheras other heels have stayed fresh. Like Ziggler whose added things like the showing off side of his character to keep things fresh and Cody whose gone from Dashing, to Undashing, to a mix of the three. Wade Barrett from angry leader of a rebel group, selfish leader using another faction for his own benefit to a classy, smug brawler motivated entirely by greed. Del Rio has stayed the same however and his act has started to get a bit dull. He is a great wrestler though, he's decent enough on the mic and is charismatic enough. I think all he needs is a bit of a character tweak to make him interesting again. I get bored a lot during Del Rio's matches for some reason. I think it's all the armbars. I understand, work the arm to set up his submission (which needs a new name btw), but he's just kinda dull with it. It's kind of an outlier example, but CM Punk working on Orton's leg during their Wrestlemania match was ridiculously entertaining, to the point where I felt it was a great match and is quite underrated in that way. Del Rio needs to channel that, show more charisma and creativity while he's destroying his opponent. As for Ziggler, he's awesome, but I'm starting to feel that he's not that great of a heel, as in getting people to hate him. There's a lot of cocky wrestlers, and a lot of them are babyfaces. He's entertaining as hell, what's to really hate about the guy? Thus, Vickie. Maybe he should turn face...but there's already a surplus of top faces right now. This ends the same way as it always does for me...they gotta turn Cena. He could be that top heel, no doubt.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Dec 25, 2011 1:50:17 GMT -5
They should pump some steroids into The Miz, Del Rio, Wade Barrett, Sheamus, and Cody Rhodes. Sure Rhodes is fine cut right now, but none of them look that big and sometimes that lessens the effectiveness of a heel. I mean, imagine if someone the size of Mason Ryan or Zeke had mic skills and was at least an ok wrestler, they'd be main eventing right now no doubt about it.
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Post by Alex Shelley on Dec 25, 2011 3:42:18 GMT -5
managers aren't a crutch to a good heel, they a vital organ sometimes True, but I would argue Dolph has outgrown the need for Vickie. They paired her up with him because he wasn't over at all, and was a lousy promo. Now he's starting to get over and has improved in leaps and bounds on the mic, time to let him shine on his own accord. I don't think Dolph was ever a lousy promo. And why can't a main event, over heel have a manager? Dolph can shine perfectly well even if he's got Vickie. He can get his own heat, but adding Vickie into the mix makes it even better. All you have to do is temper how involved she is, but you don't have to eliminate her entirely. Her announcing his entrance is great. Her being there while he cuts promos, to add her own occasional word, works well, and I don't think it hurts him in the slightest. Anyway, so we've established a problem: WWE doesn't know how to keep booking their heels after they've lost to the babyface. So the question is, how do you fix it? What would you do to keep the credibility on the heels?
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Dec 25, 2011 4:00:02 GMT -5
True, but I would argue Dolph has outgrown the need for Vickie. They paired her up with him because he wasn't over at all, and was a lousy promo. Now he's starting to get over and has improved in leaps and bounds on the mic, time to let him shine on his own accord. I don't think Dolph was ever a lousy promo.And why can't a main event, over heel have a manager? Dolph can shine perfectly well even if he's got Vickie. He can get his own heat, but adding Vickie into the mix makes it even better. All you have to do is temper how involved she is, but you don't have to eliminate her entirely. Her announcing his entrance is great. Her being there while he cuts promos, to add her own occasional word, works well, and I don't think it hurts him in the slightest. Anyway, so we've established a problem: WWE doesn't know how to keep booking their heels after they've lost to the babyface. So the question is, how do you fix it? What would you do to keep the credibility on the heels? Breaking Point 2009. One of the worst promos of the year and probably the worst part of the show. And I actually enjoyed that pay-per-view (unlike just about everyone else) so that's saying something.
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Post by Alex Shelley on Dec 25, 2011 4:31:23 GMT -5
One bad promo doesn't make somebody lousy on the mic. A pattern of bad promos does.
And that promo didn't suck because Dolph sucked. That promo sucked because it was terribly written.
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Post by jadison on Dec 25, 2011 4:39:57 GMT -5
They should pump some steroids into The Miz, Del Rio, Wade Barrett, Sheamus, and Cody Rhodes. Sure Rhodes is fine cut right now, but none of them look that big and sometimes that lessens the effectiveness of a heel. I mean, imagine if someone the size of Mason Ryan or Zeke had mic skills and was at least an ok wrestler, they'd be main eventing right now no doubt about it. If Miz did the exact same things, but was 6'5 260, he'd be the biggest star in wrestling. That's not a compliment, by the way. It means he wrestles like a big man when he isn't one.
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