Goldenbane
Hank Scorpio
THE G.D. Goldenbane
Posts: 7,331
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Post by Goldenbane on Aug 4, 2012 16:10:33 GMT -5
I'm probably gonna be sorry I asked this question, but what about the plot doesn't make sense to people? Bearing in mind that I'm asking in terms of comic book logic... Don't be sorry. Just consider the following: Ever notice that Schreck's power plant plotline went nowhere? What was Penguin's character arc? The script changes gears with nearly every scene. One scene he is a freak struggling with acceptance, the next no one has a problem with him, and the next we're back to his struggle for acceptance. Why in the world would a tycoon (Schreck) deal with some freak (the Penguin) by helping him run for Mayor? What if he won? Now he wields executive power over the city and still has dirt on you. What's the point of Catwoman? How does she become empowered by cat resurrection? Penguin is just a freak and Joker simply became one - neither suddenly become more powerful due to their origins. She is supernatural in a setting that never established such. I think there's more, but that's off the top of my head. 1. Shreck's power plant story was just a reason for him to work with Penguin (Penguin is blackmailing him) and for Catwoman's origin (she finds out about the bad stuff and he tries to kill her to shut her up). 2. The Penguin was a freak, abandoned by his parents, who lived in the sewers as basically a criminal. He wanted revenge on Gotham for not accepting him because of his looks. That was also his one and only goal...becoming mayor would have just been a fun perk, finding his parents didn't matter, and being accepted didn't matter. He was really just driven by revenge and criminal intentions. 3. He was being blackmailed and had no choice. Besides that, Shreck was figuring out that Penguin himself was rather easy to manipulate/use...and besides, he was putting himself in a position of power by helping Penguin. 4. Catwoman's origins is never really explained, and left vague on purpose (no, the Halle Berry movie doesn't count as an explaination!). She seems to be surviving all her "deaths" by pure luck, but one could argue that there's some supernatural element at play. The point of her character is that she's a wild card in the three way fight between Penguin, Shreck, and Batman.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,037
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Post by dav on Aug 4, 2012 16:12:25 GMT -5
I thought Penguin was blackmailing Shreck with the fact he had his partner killed and not the power plant thing?
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Goldenbane
Hank Scorpio
THE G.D. Goldenbane
Posts: 7,331
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Post by Goldenbane on Aug 4, 2012 16:46:18 GMT -5
I thought Penguin was blackmailing Shreck with the fact he had his partner killed and not the power plant thing? He had the shredded up papers about the power plant that Shreck thought he'd gotten rid of.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,037
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Post by dav on Aug 4, 2012 16:47:28 GMT -5
I thought Penguin was blackmailing Shreck with the fact he had his partner killed and not the power plant thing? He had the shredded up papers about the power plant that Shreck thought he'd gotten rid of. So what was the point of the plant? All I remember is that it'd be 'his legacy to his son' but I'm not entirely sure what a gigantic battery that sucks up energy for no real reason is supposed to do.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 4, 2012 17:23:52 GMT -5
He had the shredded up papers about the power plant that Shreck thought he'd gotten rid of. So what was the point of the plant? All I remember is that it'd be 'his legacy to his son' but I'm not entirely sure what a gigantic battery that sucks up energy for no real reason is supposed to do. Hold Gotham to ransom when the time comes to sell that power back to them
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Aug 4, 2012 19:38:45 GMT -5
Yeah, I can see how the plot was a little convoluted and could have been streamlined maybe, but I think overall it made sense.
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
Posts: 62,166
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Aug 4, 2012 20:33:06 GMT -5
I still like the movie and I love the fact that Paul Reubens was one Penguin's parents. I think that Danny Devito was the perfect fit for the Penguin as well
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 4, 2012 21:25:42 GMT -5
The "Batman vs the Circus Gang" sequence is tremendous, particularly the firebreather scene.
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Post by DSR on Aug 4, 2012 21:57:11 GMT -5
I do like the review I read that basically said Danny Devito's Penguin was him warming up for playing Frank Reynolds about 15 years later.
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Goldenbane
Hank Scorpio
THE G.D. Goldenbane
Posts: 7,331
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Post by Goldenbane on Aug 4, 2012 23:02:12 GMT -5
I do like the review I read that basically said Danny Devito's Penguin was him warming up for playing Frank Reynolds about 15 years later. That reminds me...I wonder how Danny Devito's Penguin would be remembered, if he'd been allowed to play the more familiar gangster version, or this mutant freak version. The mob boss Penguin is a much more Devito-like role, than what we actually got.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Aug 5, 2012 9:56:30 GMT -5
I still like the movie and I love the fact that Paul Reubens was one Penguin's parents. I think that Danny Devito was the perfect fit for the Penguin as well Agreed. I think it's arguably his best performance as an actor, period. "It could be worse...my nose could be gushing blood!"
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 5, 2012 12:16:15 GMT -5
The Penguin's masterplan is legitimately sinister. Even one of his henchmen objects to it....then gets killed.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,989
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Post by chazraps on Aug 5, 2012 12:55:03 GMT -5
Stylistically, Burton's creation of Gotham in winter is my favorite capturing of the city. Brooding, ominous, with technology and architecture of an uncertain era. Revisiting all of them, I can't get into the comic subdued zaniness of the first film (purple barrels of green goo or Joker's needlessly breakdancing henchmen, at least the penguins with rockets had more of a practical purpose) but Returns is just stylized enough to the point where I can immerse myself in that world.
I don't think celebrating a film just for how it looks is a bad thing. Film is a visual medium, and if a movie is driven by how cool it looks, it's not fair to just dismiss those visual triumphs as "all shine, no substance."
As for the complaints that "it's not a Batman movie," outside the Nolan films, none of the Batman movies really were. You only ever get Batman's origin in the first film and that's it. Otherwise, you have to make time to show how The Penguin, Catwoman, The Riddler, Poison Ivy etc. came to be. That's a big advantage the Nolan films have, all the villains already exist so we can get right to their conflict with Batman.
Plus, the Sega-CD 'Batman Returns' game is the best Batman game from the fifteen or so years before Arkham Asylum was released.
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Post by psychokiller on Aug 5, 2012 13:43:10 GMT -5
I think Batman Returns is still a great film to this day. Barman wasn't in it much, but I really didn't mind. It gave the character a dark/mysterious feel by not being in it too much. I love the extremely dark feel to the movie, which I know some people seem to dislike. It's not as good as Batman 1989 or Dark Knight, but I think it's a better made film than the rest. Also, Michelle Pheiffer was amazing as Catwoman, and Devito was great as Penguin too.
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