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Post by molson5 on Oct 25, 2011 8:45:02 GMT -5
Andre was a different kind of star, a throwback to the traveling carnival attractions - he didn't stay very long in one promotion and and he didn't have many long, drawn out feuds with other top guys over championships and such. Usually, he was actually booked as midcarder - he'd show up in your town, maybe wrestle a 2-on-1 handicap match on the undercard, or wrestle with the local promotion's annoying midcard heel. There's not a ton to remember about him in terms of big epic matches against other big stars, which is how we really define stars today.
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Post by squaredcircle on Oct 25, 2011 8:46:49 GMT -5
Andre was a different kind of star, a throwback to the traveling carnival attractions - he didn't stay very long in one promotion and and he didn't have many long, drawn out feuds with other top guys over championships and such. Usually, he was actually booked as midcarder - he'd show up in your town, maybe wrestle a 2-on-1 handicap match on the undercard, or wrestle with the local promotion's annoying midcard heel. There's not a ton to remember about him in terms of big epic matches against other big stars, which is how we really define stars today. true. Andre was never going to get the belt because he wasn't going to stay anywhere long enough to build a business on. so there were never any build-ups to Andre matches or feuds.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Oct 25, 2011 8:55:21 GMT -5
I would argue for Flair and Piper in Biggest star category. Piper had a LOT of mainstream press with Hogan and with They Live. Flair, while not a household word, is someone people all over the country saw via the Superstation TBS.
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Post by willywonka666 on Oct 25, 2011 9:26:55 GMT -5
I never include Andre when talking about the greatest of all time. Yes, he had that big attraction appeal, but that's about it. I love hearing stories and such about him, but I've never enjoyed a match of his. Just seems like one of those guys that is so fondly remembered because of the respect factor and not because of his actual body of work. But wrestling oddly enough is not all about ability. You don't hear the average joe talking about Dean Malenko, but Andre? Yes
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Oct 25, 2011 10:05:23 GMT -5
Andre is automatically up there with Hogan, Piper and Savage just based on his late 80's heel run alone. I think Dibiase Sr. was a pretty big deal as well- as a kid, I at least knew who he was before I became a serious wrestling fan.
Flair wasn't quite on that level in his prime, but as of late he seems to have become one of those names that non-wrestling fans can identify. Even if they're not familiar with his matches, they know of that blonde guy in the gaudy, Mardi Gras indian-looking robe that yells woo a lot.
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Post by willywonka666 on Oct 25, 2011 11:04:46 GMT -5
To me it's about who broke through to the Mainstream as well. I wasn't around in the 60's, but Bruno had to be a major name in and out of the ring. I don't know if he appeared on talk shows, but he should be in there too
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Post by repomanfan on Oct 25, 2011 12:14:13 GMT -5
I never include Andre when talking about the greatest of all time. Yes, he had that big attraction appeal, but that's about it. I love hearing stories and such about him, but I've never enjoyed a match of his. Just seems like one of those guys that is so fondly remembered because of the respect factor and not because of his actual body of work. But wrestling oddly enough is not all about ability. You don't hear the average joe talking about Dean Malenko, but Andre? Yes Wrestling is about getting "over" period. And in most instances that takes ability. If you can do a 100 moves but can't get the crowd to applaud you; then how good can you really be? Who was a better Pro Wrestler; Malenko or Hogan? Hulkster by a 100 miles.
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Post by willywonka666 on Oct 25, 2011 12:22:22 GMT -5
But wrestling oddly enough is not all about ability. You don't hear the average joe talking about Dean Malenko, but Andre? Yes Wrestling is about getting "over" period. And in most instances that takes ability. If you can do a 100 moves but can't get the crowd to applaud you; then how good can you really be? Who was a better Pro Wrestler; Malenko or Hogan? Hulkster by a 100 miles. True. Maybe ability wasn't the right word, but technically Malenko is better obviously, but As you noted Hulk did have the ability to get the crowd going. But I meant ability as in skill and technique as far as the art of the sport itself goes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2011 12:23:36 GMT -5
To me it's about who broke through to the Mainstream as well. Absolutely correct. Except for a couple of boom periods in the '80s and '90s when it became more mainstream, pro wrestling has always been more of a fringe element in pop culture. The only time a wrestler ever truly becomes a household name is when he becomes "bigger than the business." I wasn't around in the 60's, but Bruno had to be a major name in and out of the ring. I don't know if he appeared on talk shows, but he should be in there too Neither was I, but if he was as much of a big deal as I can imagine he was, his star has certainly burned out over the years. I think the fact that he wanted to distance himself from the business - combined with Vince's tendency to downplay anyone who isn't on good terms - has effectively made his career little more than a statistic to today's fans. Interestingly enough, Gorgeous George is someone people of all ages tend to be familiar with, even if he is only someone whose name people recognize as an "old wrestler." Even though it was over half a century ago, he transcended wrestling so much that he made it permanently on the "biggest stars" list. That said, if I had to make a list of the biggest stars in pro wrestling history, it would almost by default have to consist solely of people who are very well-known outside of wrestling, thus eliminating the Flairs, Brets, Stings, Foleys, and HBKs instantly. If this list was made in the '90s, it would be a very different story, but like Bruno, a lot of wrestlers who were once huge deals are now little more than answers to trivia questions. Remember Rikishi and the Kat were once on the cover of TV Guide. My list would probably go something like this, in no particular order: Hulk Hogan Randy Savage Andre the Giant Roddy Piper Gorgeous George (varies with age) Steve Austin The Rock "Big Daddy" Shirley Crabtree (depending on your age and where you live) El Santo (depending on your age and where you live) Honorable Mentions, or the wrestlers who aren't quite household names, but a lot of non-fans can recognize:Sgt. Slaughter (maybe should have been on the first list) Ultimate Warrior Capt. Lou Albano Ric Flair Jerry Lawler (depending on your age and where you live) Bruno Sammartino (depending on your age) Bobo Brazil (depending on your age) Debated if these should even be honorable mentions:John Cena (big right now, but hasn't really "gone mainstream") The Miz (still somewhat known from previous endeavors) "The Four Horsemen" (even if they don't know any members) It also crossed my mind that for better or worse, there probably isn't a non-fan who doesn't know about Chris Benoit.
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Post by repomanfan on Oct 25, 2011 12:59:15 GMT -5
Wrestling is about getting "over" period. And in most instances that takes ability. If you can do a 100 moves but can't get the crowd to applaud you; then how good can you really be? Who was a better Pro Wrestler; Malenko or Hogan? Hulkster by a 100 miles. True. Maybe ability wasn't the right word, but technically Malenko is better obviously, but As you noted Hulk did have the ability to get the crowd going. But I meant ability as in skill and technique as far as the art of the sport itself goes.[/ quote] There are no points, or judges. "Over" is the only thing that matters. It's not as if Malenko wasn't "over", he was, just not in the same way as Luger, Hogan etc....
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Post by willywonka666 on Oct 25, 2011 13:07:43 GMT -5
To me it's about who broke through to the Mainstream as well. Absolutely correct. Except for a couple of boom periods in the '80s and '90s when it became more mainstream, pro wrestling has always been more of a fringe element in pop culture. The only time a wrestler ever truly becomes a household name is when he becomes "bigger than the business." I wasn't around in the 60's, but Bruno had to be a major name in and out of the ring. I don't know if he appeared on talk shows, but he should be in there too Neither was I, but if he was as much of a big deal as I can imagine he was, his star has certainly burned out over the years. I think the fact that he wanted to distance himself from the business - combined with Vince's tendency to downplay anyone who isn't on good terms - has effectively made his career little more than a statistic to today's fans. Interestingly enough, Gorgeous George is someone people of all ages tend to be familiar with, even if he is only someone whose name people recognize as an "old wrestler." Even though it was over half a century ago, he transcended wrestling so much that he made it permanently on the "biggest stars" list. That said, if I had to make a list of the biggest stars in pro wrestling history, it would almost by default have to consist solely of people who are very well-known outside of wrestling, thus eliminating the Flairs, Brets, Stings, Foleys, and HBKs instantly. If this list was made in the '90s, it would be a very different story, but like Bruno, a lot of wrestlers who were once huge deals are now little more than answers to trivia questions. Remember Rikishi and the Kat were once on the cover of TV Guide. My list would probably go something like this, in no particular order: Hulk Hogan Randy Savage Andre the Giant Roddy Piper Gorgeous George (varies with age) Steve Austin The Rock "Big Daddy" Shirley Crabtree (depending on your age and where you live) El Santo (depending on your age and where you live) Honorable Mentions, or the wrestlers who aren't quite household names, but a lot of non-fans can recognize:Sgt. Slaughter (maybe should have been on the first list) Ultimate Warrior Capt. Lou Albano Ric Flair Jerry Lawler (depending on your age and where you live) Bruno Sammartino (depending on your age) Bobo Brazil (depending on your age) Debated if these should even be honorable mentions:John Cena (big right now, but hasn't really "gone mainstream") The Miz (still somewhat known from previous endeavors) "The Four Horsemen" (even if they don't know any members) It also crossed my mind that for better or worse, there probably isn't a non-fan who doesn't know about Chris Benoit. Foley would be on that list I would think due to his books alone
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Post by squaredcircle on Oct 25, 2011 13:26:02 GMT -5
as great as Bruno was, and as over as he was in his time, he was only over to the wrestling crowd. he didn't cross over to popular culture.
neither did Superstar Graham. nor Morales. nor Backlund
not until Hulk Hogan and MTV did wrestling really enter the mainstream. Piper, Albano, Orndorff, etc all had their moment in the spotlight, but it was reflected light off Hogan.
Andre was known outside of wrestling because he was such a freak of nature. he was the giant guy who wrestled. i wouldn't say his noteriety translated into fans of his wrestling, but he was known outside of his craft to non-fans.
at this point i might say Dwayne Johnson is more known now as a movie star who used to be a wrestler, rather than the other way around.
Georgeous George is an interesting case. he was certainly known to the mainstream, but he was incredibly unique to his time and place - the dawn of television.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,352
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Post by The Ichi on Oct 25, 2011 13:38:02 GMT -5
Hogan/Austin/Rock
Savage/Andre/Warrior/Piper
Taker/Bret Hart/HBK/Flair/HHH/Cena
Those are the tiers, in my opinion.
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Post by Manute Bol on Oct 25, 2011 16:13:51 GMT -5
To me it's about who broke through to the Mainstream as well. Absolutely correct. Except for a couple of boom periods in the '80s and '90s when it became more mainstream, pro wrestling has always been more of a fringe element in pop culture. The only time a wrestler ever truly becomes a household name is when he becomes "bigger than the business." I wasn't around in the 60's, but Bruno had to be a major name in and out of the ring. I don't know if he appeared on talk shows, but he should be in there too Neither was I, but if he was as much of a big deal as I can imagine he was, his star has certainly burned out over the years. I think the fact that he wanted to distance himself from the business - combined with Vince's tendency to downplay anyone who isn't on good terms - has effectively made his career little more than a statistic to today's fans. Interestingly enough, Gorgeous George is someone people of all ages tend to be familiar with, even if he is only someone whose name people recognize as an "old wrestler." Even though it was over half a century ago, he transcended wrestling so much that he made it permanently on the "biggest stars" list. That said, if I had to make a list of the biggest stars in pro wrestling history, it would almost by default have to consist solely of people who are very well-known outside of wrestling, thus eliminating the Flairs, Brets, Stings, Foleys, and HBKs instantly. If this list was made in the '90s, it would be a very different story, but like Bruno, a lot of wrestlers who were once huge deals are now little more than answers to trivia questions. Remember Rikishi and the Kat were once on the cover of TV Guide. My list would probably go something like this, in no particular order: Hulk Hogan Randy Savage Andre the Giant Roddy Piper Gorgeous George (varies with age) Steve Austin The Rock "Big Daddy" Shirley Crabtree (depending on your age and where you live) El Santo (depending on your age and where you live) Honorable Mentions, or the wrestlers who aren't quite household names, but a lot of non-fans can recognize:Sgt. Slaughter (maybe should have been on the first list) Ultimate Warrior Capt. Lou Albano Ric Flair Jerry Lawler (depending on your age and where you live) Bruno Sammartino (depending on your age) Bobo Brazil (depending on your age) Debated if these should even be honorable mentions:John Cena (big right now, but hasn't really "gone mainstream") The Miz (still somewhat known from previous endeavors) "The Four Horsemen" (even if they don't know any members) It also crossed my mind that for better or worse, there probably isn't a non-fan who doesn't know about Chris Benoit. If your standard for this list is that they are well-known outside of wrestling, then I seriously disagree with this list. Half of these names aren't even known to many wrestling fans. I'd be willing to bet that much more than 50% of the fans at any WWE event wouldn't have any clue as to who Bob Brazil or Shirley Crabtree are. Like I said in a previous post, in my opinion, this is a VERY short list: Hulk Hogan Andre the Giant Macho Man Randy Savage The Ultimate Warrior Stone Cold Steve Austin Vince McMahon The Rock John Cena And that's it. Those are the most recognizable names from this business. These eight names have transcended wrestling and become pop culture icons. You show anyone a picture of those guys and there's a good chance they would at least recognize them or be able to identify the fact that they are a professional wrestler. Others such as Sting, The Undertaker, Triple H, Mick Foley, Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Rowdy Roddy Piper and Shawn Michaels would probably be recognized by many, but FAR fewer than the eight I originally listed. Bobo Brazil and Shirley Crabtree? No way.
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Post by BJ Sturgeon on Oct 25, 2011 16:40:33 GMT -5
If your standard for this list is that they are well-known outside of wrestling, then I seriously disagree with this list. Half of these names aren't even known to many wrestling fans. I'd be willing to bet that much more than 50% of the fans at any WWE event wouldn't have any clue as to who Bob Brazil or Shirley Crabtree are. Like I said in a previous post, in my opinion, this is a VERY short list: Hulk Hogan Andre the Giant Macho Man Randy Savage The Ultimate Warrior Stone Cold Steve Austin Vince McMahon The Rock John Cena And that's it. Those are the most recognizable names from this business. These eight names have transcended wrestling and become pop culture icons. You show anyone a picture of those guys and there's a good chance they would at least recognize them or be able to identify the fact that they are a professional wrestler. Others such as Sting, The Undertaker, Triple H, Mick Foley, Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Rowdy Roddy Piper and Shawn Michaels would probably be recognized by many, but FAR fewer than the eight I originally listed. Bobo Brazil and Shirley Crabtree? No way. Actually I could imagine more non-fans being familiar with The undertaker (who was a big part of both boom periods) than John Cena.
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TuneinTokyo
Hank Scorpio
The Mountain from Stone Mountain
Posts: 6,431
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Post by TuneinTokyo on Oct 25, 2011 19:42:00 GMT -5
I agree GOAT lists tend to be specific to eras and locales, abilities and recognition.
Most famous in the world of popular culture might be more appropriate for placing guys like Andre and Hogan.
That being said I come from the late 70's era and when Andre came in to town it meant two things 1) there is going to be a battle royal worth 10-20 thousand dollars.
2) Some big name heel or tag team was going to get their asses kicked. (He didn't normally do 2 on 1 with names, at least I've only seen him do that in jobber squash matches)
So my list reads something like this.
Andre Hogan Gorgeous George (I knew the guy before I knew what wrestling was) Rock
I think the rest fall into second place or honorable mention.
Side note I asked my wife (serious non wrestling fan) a bunch of names off the HOF list. She didn't know Dwayne Johnson but knew who the Rock was, she knew Andre, Hogan, and thought George was a Bugs Bunny's character in the old wrestling cartoon but that was it. She didn't know Macho or Piper, she didn't even know Capt. Lou.
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TuneinTokyo
Hank Scorpio
The Mountain from Stone Mountain
Posts: 6,431
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Post by TuneinTokyo on Oct 25, 2011 19:55:19 GMT -5
Double side note: We have a woman from outside of Manchester staying with us. The first name I threw out was Big Daddy. She asked "Is he a wrestler?" and then knew of him.
Andre? Natch. Hogan? Sure. The Rock? No. Didn't ask about George.
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Post by Citizen Snips on Oct 25, 2011 20:27:26 GMT -5
Andre was a different kind of star, a throwback to the traveling carnival attractions - he didn't stay very long in one promotion and and he didn't have many long, drawn out feuds with other top guys over championships and such. Usually, he was actually booked as midcarder - he'd show up in your town, maybe wrestle a 2-on-1 handicap match on the undercard, or wrestle with the local promotion's annoying midcard heel. There's not a ton to remember about him in terms of big epic matches against other big stars, which is how we really define stars today. [img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gPp74AFBivI/TD_QY8zt-5I/AAAAAAAAAZo/NLs0pqQOrLM/s1600/17765_512x288_manicured__QNEM5Coi9kC5PxT8mJzDPA[1].jpg"]
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