|
Post by wildojinx on Dec 20, 2011 9:01:08 GMT -5
Does anyone know why they had vader ultimately win this feud? All signs pointed to foley coming back and finally getting his revenge. I know plans were to put the belt on sid at starrcade (of course, the scissors incident caused them to use flair instead), but they still could have made it a non-title match. Instead they have cactus lose (albiet due to harley race interfering), making the whole angle irrevelevant.
|
|
|
Post by Ryushinku on Dec 20, 2011 11:06:10 GMT -5
Judging from what Mick wrote, it seems that the people in charge of and behind the scenes at WCW were pretty down on the whole Vader-Jack feud in the first place, and the plan was always for things to end up firmly in Vader's favour.
Foley felt there was a real air of 'let's get this out of the way' about the HH '93 main event, and little promotion. By that point, he was just wanted to get the moral victory of beating the count after the powerbomb on his own steam, which he got.
It's pretty much the strongest reason why he decided to eventually leave WCW. The whole "Excedrin Headache Number 9" jibe.
|
|
|
Post by BlackoutCreature on Dec 20, 2011 13:18:56 GMT -5
I know nowadays we look back and see Mick Foley as a legend and Vader as a forgotten remnant of the time (which is a shame), but at the time conventional thinking said Vader was the main eventer, Jack was a weird mid-carder who got a cup of coffee against the top guy. In the end the main eventer always goes over in situations like that. The best you can hope for is building up enough heat for the other guy in the feud that you can do something interesting with him down the line.
Best I can compare it to was the Santino Marella-Sheamus feud from last year. Yes it gave us tea parties instead of mutilated ears, but it was still a monster main eventer vs. a weird mid-carder with a cult following. People got behind Santino and enjoyed the ride, but it only existed in the first place for Sheamus to have something to do until it was time to put him back into the World Title picture, so in the end the outcome was never in doubt.
|
|
|
Post by Manute Bol on Dec 21, 2011 0:25:15 GMT -5
Best I can compare it to was the Santino Marella-Sheamus feud from last year. Yes it gave us tea parties instead of mutilated ears, but it was still a monster main eventer vs. a weird mid-carder with a cult following. People got behind Santino and enjoyed the ride, but it only existed in the first place for Sheamus to have something to do until it was time to put him back into the World Title picture, so in the end the outcome was never in doubt. I think you're selling Cactus VERY short there. That's a highly exaggerated comparison.
|
|
|
Post by Todd's crazy , Man. on Dec 21, 2011 0:29:23 GMT -5
Yeah that is a weird comparison. Plus Vader isn't really that forgotten at least in the mind of Japanese fan and american fans of Japanese wrestling. He's perhaps the second best Gajin of all time next to Hansen.
If we don't count Rikidozan of course.
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,084
Member is Online
|
Post by Mozenrath on Dec 21, 2011 4:19:35 GMT -5
Yeah that is a weird comparison. Plus Vader isn't really that forgotten at least in the mind of Japanese fan and american fans of Japanese wrestling. He's perhaps the second best Gajin of all time next to Hansen. If we don't count Rikidozan of course. Terry Funk.
|
|
|
Post by BlackoutCreature on Dec 21, 2011 11:28:37 GMT -5
Best I can compare it to was the Santino Marella-Sheamus feud from last year. Yes it gave us tea parties instead of mutilated ears, but it was still a monster main eventer vs. a weird mid-carder with a cult following. People got behind Santino and enjoyed the ride, but it only existed in the first place for Sheamus to have something to do until it was time to put him back into the World Title picture, so in the end the outcome was never in doubt. I think you're selling Cactus VERY short there. That's a highly exaggerated comparison. You're looking at it from a modern perspective, you have to look at it from how they saw it back then. In 1993 nobody in WCW saw Cactus Jack as a main eventer. I'm not saying that was the right call or the smart call, in fact Foley has proven in his later career how wrong those people were to do that, but it was how the top brass in WCW perceived him. Yes he had famous runs against guys like Sting and Vader, but the end to those feuds was never in doubt and they were never done to elevate Cactus but to give the main eventers something to do. Yeah that is a weird comparison. Plus Vader isn't really that forgotten at least in the mind of Japanese fan and american fans of Japanese wrestling. He's perhaps the second best Gajin of all time next to Hansen. You're getting into really hardcore fan territory here. I'd imagine that even the majority of the members on these boards who would actually call themselves "hardcore wrestling fans" don't follow Japanese wrestling outside the occasional historical novelty. To the average wrestling fan Vader was a guy who had a really hot run in the early 90's, tapered off in the mid-90's and disappeared by the end of the decade. It's a shame he's not better remembered, but the fact is he's not.
|
|
|
Post by mjolnir on Dec 21, 2011 13:35:14 GMT -5
I think you're selling Cactus VERY short there. That's a highly exaggerated comparison. You're looking at it from a modern perspective, you have to look at it from how they saw it back then. In 1993 nobody in WCW saw Cactus Jack as a main eventer. I'm not saying that was the right call or the smart call, in fact Foley has proven in his later career how wrong those people were to do that, but it was how the top brass in WCW perceived him. Yes he had famous runs against guys like Sting and Vader, but the end to those feuds was never in doubt and they were never done to elevate Cactus but to give the main eventers something to do. Yeah that is a weird comparison. Plus Vader isn't really that forgotten at least in the mind of Japanese fan and american fans of Japanese wrestling. He's perhaps the second best Gajin of all time next to Hansen. You're getting into really hardcore fan territory here. I'd imagine that even the majority of the members on these boards who would actually call themselves "hardcore wrestling fans" don't follow Japanese wrestling outside the occasional historical novelty. To the average wrestling fan Vader was a guy who had a really hot run in the early 90's, tapered off in the mid-90's and disappeared by the end of the decade. It's a shame he's not better remembered, but the fact is he's not. I don't think that's entirely true, to be honest. From all accounts most of the brass liked Foley and saw something in him. Alot of the older guys like Dusty and Race loved him too & would put in good words for him. It was just usually the head booker, whoever it was that week, that for whatever reason never saw anything in him.
|
|
|
Post by BlackoutCreature on Dec 21, 2011 15:59:23 GMT -5
You're looking at it from a modern perspective, you have to look at it from how they saw it back then. In 1993 nobody in WCW saw Cactus Jack as a main eventer. I'm not saying that was the right call or the smart call, in fact Foley has proven in his later career how wrong those people were to do that, but it was how the top brass in WCW perceived him. Yes he had famous runs against guys like Sting and Vader, but the end to those feuds was never in doubt and they were never done to elevate Cactus but to give the main eventers something to do. You're getting into really hardcore fan territory here. I'd imagine that even the majority of the members on these boards who would actually call themselves "hardcore wrestling fans" don't follow Japanese wrestling outside the occasional historical novelty. To the average wrestling fan Vader was a guy who had a really hot run in the early 90's, tapered off in the mid-90's and disappeared by the end of the decade. It's a shame he's not better remembered, but the fact is he's not. I don't think that's entirely true, to be honest. From all accounts most of the brass liked Foley and saw something in him. Alot of the older guys like Dusty and Race loved him too & would put in good words for him. It was just usually the head booker, whoever it was that week, that for whatever reason never saw anything in him. Just because he had his backers doesn't change my point - Vader was the top dog in the company and there were no plans to do anything bigger with Cactus Jack. Right or wrong, smart or not, that's just how it was.
|
|
|
Post by Manute Bol on Dec 21, 2011 22:16:55 GMT -5
I think you're selling Cactus VERY short there. That's a highly exaggerated comparison. You're looking at it from a modern perspective, you have to look at it from how they saw it back then. In 1993 nobody in WCW saw Cactus Jack as a main eventer. I'm not saying that was the right call or the smart call, in fact Foley has proven in his later career how wrong those people were to do that, but it was how the top brass in WCW perceived him. Yes he had famous runs against guys like Sting and Vader, but the end to those feuds was never in doubt and they were never done to elevate Cactus but to give the main eventers something to do. I'm sorry but I have to absolutely disagree with every bit of this. I was watching WCW in 1993 and can testify as to how the Cactus Jack/Vader feud was presented on television. Cactus was definitely firmly established a legitimate contender by this point. He had already feuded with the WCW Champion Sting and had a hot feud with Paul Orndorff after his face turn. If nobody saw him as a main eventer then why did he main event Halloween Havoc 1993? To compare his role in the Cactus/Vader feud to Santino Marella during his feud with Sheamus is absolutely, positively, 100% inaccurate.
|
|
|
Post by BlackoutCreature on Dec 22, 2011 0:33:17 GMT -5
You're looking at it from a modern perspective, you have to look at it from how they saw it back then. In 1993 nobody in WCW saw Cactus Jack as a main eventer. I'm not saying that was the right call or the smart call, in fact Foley has proven in his later career how wrong those people were to do that, but it was how the top brass in WCW perceived him. Yes he had famous runs against guys like Sting and Vader, but the end to those feuds was never in doubt and they were never done to elevate Cactus but to give the main eventers something to do. I'm sorry but I have to absolutely disagree with every bit of this. I was watching WCW in 1993 and can testify as to how the Cactus Jack/Vader feud was presented on television. Cactus was definitely firmly established a legitimate contender by this point. He had already feuded with the WCW Champion Sting and had a hot feud with Paul Orndorff after his face turn. If nobody saw him as a main eventer then why did he main event Halloween Havoc 1993? To compare his role in the Cactus/Vader feud to Santino Marella during his feud with Sheamus is absolutely, positively, 100% inaccurate. So Cactus had worked feuds with Sting and Paul Orndorff? So what? How does that change anything? Santino had worked programs with John Cena and Steve Austin. It doesn't mean that the WWE would trust him to carry the company. Yes, his feud with Vader got hot, hot enough to main event a PPV. But notice how Jack was with WCW for about two years before Havoc 93, and about a year after Havoc 93, and never main eventd another PPV. Why? Because the guys running WCW DID NOT SEE HIM AS A MAIN EVENTER. The feud was there to give Vader, the guy they saw as the legitimate main eventer, something to do until something more important came along. It was not about having Jack go over or elevating him. It sounds to me like youre just offended I would compare a mostly comedic affair like Santino-Sheamus to the more hard-hitting, bloody and violent feud of Cactus-Vader. But when you get past the level of violence involved then the actual purposes of the feuds are remarkably similar.
|
|
|
Post by Manute Bol on Dec 22, 2011 1:02:53 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I have to absolutely disagree with every bit of this. I was watching WCW in 1993 and can testify as to how the Cactus Jack/Vader feud was presented on television. Cactus was definitely firmly established a legitimate contender by this point. He had already feuded with the WCW Champion Sting and had a hot feud with Paul Orndorff after his face turn. If nobody saw him as a main eventer then why did he main event Halloween Havoc 1993? To compare his role in the Cactus/Vader feud to Santino Marella during his feud with Sheamus is absolutely, positively, 100% inaccurate. It sounds to me like youre just offended I would compare a mostly comedic affair like Santino-Sheamus to the more hard-hitting, bloody and violent feud of Cactus-Vader. But when you get past the level of violence involved then the actual purposes of the feuds are remarkably similar. Not sure where that assumption came from as I didn't even remotely imply or allude to this at all. With assumptions like this I don't see this discussion going anywhere.
|
|
|
Post by BlackoutCreature on Dec 22, 2011 14:24:51 GMT -5
It sounds to me like youre just offended I would compare a mostly comedic affair like Santino-Sheamus to the more hard-hitting, bloody and violent feud of Cactus-Vader. But when you get past the level of violence involved then the actual purposes of the feuds are remarkably similar. Not sure where that assumption came from as I didn't even remotely imply or allude to this at all. With assumptions like this I don't see this discussion going anywhere. I think this statement is unnecessary. Sorry if I jumped the gun by saying that but I don't think I was in anyway being insulting. It also wouldn't be the first discussion I've ever seen on these boards where a sacred cow influenced someone's thinking.
|
|
Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,062
|
Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 24, 2011 3:07:46 GMT -5
How about a comparison of Bob Holly v Brock Lesnar then, long term midcarder v monster, had a legitimate injury in there too.
|
|
|
Post by Dr. Bunsen Honeydew on Dec 26, 2011 13:29:47 GMT -5
I don't think that's entirely true, to be honest. From all accounts most of the brass liked Foley and saw something in him. Alot of the older guys like Dusty and Race loved him too & would put in good words for him. It was just usually the head booker, whoever it was that week, that for whatever reason never saw anything in him. The head booker in question was Ric Flair. Later on it was Eric Bichoff.
|
|
|
Post by jadison on Dec 26, 2011 13:41:05 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I have to absolutely disagree with every bit of this. I was watching WCW in 1993 and can testify as to how the Cactus Jack/Vader feud was presented on television. Cactus was definitely firmly established a legitimate contender by this point. He had already feuded with the WCW Champion Sting and had a hot feud with Paul Orndorff after his face turn. If nobody saw him as a main eventer then why did he main event Halloween Havoc 1993? To compare his role in the Cactus/Vader feud to Santino Marella during his feud with Sheamus is absolutely, positively, 100% inaccurate. Yes, his feud with Vader got hot, hot enough to main event a PPV. Those Santino feuds would never get hot enough to main event Smackdown. It is a bad comparison in terms of Cactus's spot in the company and Santino's spot.
|
|
|
Post by mjolnir on Dec 26, 2011 15:25:45 GMT -5
I don't think that's entirely true, to be honest. From all accounts most of the brass liked Foley and saw something in him. Alot of the older guys like Dusty and Race loved him too & would put in good words for him. It was just usually the head booker, whoever it was that week, that for whatever reason never saw anything in him. The head booker in question was Ric Flair. Later on it was Eric Bichoff. I know, I was making a joke about WCW's revolving door policy on their head booker position.
|
|
|
Post by BlackoutCreature on Dec 26, 2011 19:46:28 GMT -5
Yes, his feud with Vader got hot, hot enough to main event a PPV. Those Santino feuds would never get hot enough to main event Smackdown. It is a bad comparison in terms of Cactus's spot in the company and Santino's spot. My God you people are overanalyzing this. My point is the same - Vader was seen as a main eventer, Cactus wasnt. Vader was seen as someone important, Cactus wasn't. From the beginning Vader was gonna go over, Cactus wasn't. The only reason this feud existed was to give Vader something to do until something more important for him came along. End of story. Based on everything we've seen and heard about WCW at the time this should be painfully obvious. Why is this an argument?
|
|
|
Post by Manute Bol on Dec 27, 2011 3:46:57 GMT -5
Those Santino feuds would never get hot enough to main event Smackdown. It is a bad comparison in terms of Cactus's spot in the company and Santino's spot. My God you people are overanalyzing this. My point is the same - Vader was seen as a main eventer, Cactus wasnt. Vader was seen as someone important, Cactus wasn't. From the beginning Vader was gonna go over, Cactus wasn't. The only reason this feud existed was to give Vader something to do until something more important for him came along. End of story. Based on everything we've seen and heard about WCW at the time this should be painfully obvious. Why is this an argument? Because not only are you inaccurate, but you're completely understating Foley's role in the company at this time. Yes the plan all along was for Vader to go over, but what exactly does that prove? Just because he was scheduled to lose a program doesn't mean he wasn't seen as "someone important". That's seriously ridiculous. "The only reason this feud existed was to give Vader something to do until something more important for him came along." What a ridiculous statement. What is this based on? Can you confirm this? Is there anything substantial behind this statement? No. It's absurd. You can say that about any wrestling feud ever. For example, "Kane's going to lose his feud with John Cena. The only reason it's even happening is to keep Cena on TV." I told myself I would stop replying in this thread after you made assumptions about my argument that were completely out of left field. I think you're assessment of Foley in WCW at this time is off, and it seems like most in this thread agree. Maybe you should check out some videos from this time period?
|
|
Feyrhausen
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,225
Member is Online
|
Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 27, 2011 7:58:01 GMT -5
Wasn't there a quote in one of Foleys books where Foley was getting a title match against Ron Simmons, and Foley joked that if something happened he might win the championship. The boss (I guess it would have to be Bill Watts) told Foley "I don't care if he has a heart attack and dies in the ring, you roll him on top of you and get pinned." or something like that. Sums up managements feelings of Foley as champ to me.
|
|