Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2011 15:57:02 GMT -5
And why are people so fixated on getting another wrestling boom? If you haven't noticed, the whole world's economy is horrible. If people don't have the money for something, they won't spend it. Even the almighty UFC is feeling the repercussions. Somehow you always say what I wanted to say, and probably better than I would have said it.
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Post by crabnebula on Dec 20, 2011 16:03:16 GMT -5
And why are people so fixated on getting another wrestling boom? If you haven't noticed, the whole world's economy is horrible. If people don't have the money for something, they won't spend it. Even the almighty UFC is feeling the repercussions. I think I worded that poorly. In the mid 90s, I had no clue what a boom period was. Didn't realize I had experienced one in the 80s. I meant that maybe the balancing act of fandom was more balanced. if that makes sense. wrestling was wrestling. not just one brand. even though the wwf worked so hard to be a major brand and were the worldwide brand at that point. fans still considered pro wrestling to be pro wrestling and would watch pro wrestling in general. now, you have people who absolutely refuse to watch TNA, ROH, or anything outside of the brand (WWE) I'm saying that perception and feeling all around has hurt the industry. If guys like Hogan had felt WCW was way beneath them, wrestling wouldn't have evolved into a cable live t.v. phenomena (if that sounds better and is more truthful or hopeful than just saying, "Hey, another boom period ain't happening, because of this") also, i concede to differing viewpoints of what is holding the artform or sport back. a bad product can be considered a bad product. i accept that. still, i think wrestling fans have become way too close minded in the last decade.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 20, 2011 16:12:57 GMT -5
You can't force people to like something they don't want to watch.
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NOwave
Don Corleone
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Post by NOwave on Dec 20, 2011 16:20:22 GMT -5
This is the answer. There is no such thing a "fan nepotism" in any business. Either your customers like your product or they don't. Pro wrestling in general(WWF, TNA and all the indys) has lost much of their audience since 2000-2001, particularly following the death of WCW. There was a significant portion of WCW's audience that did not follow WWF after the purchase, and simply quit watching wrestling altogether. That group has never been recaptured and is now probably gone forever.
Wrestling has been a cyclic business since it's beginnings early in the 20th century, and this is down period. I suspect there will be some sort of "boom" or rebound in business before too much longer, as this has been one of the longest down cycles ever.
What will it take to ignite the next boom? I certainly don't know, nor does anybody here. It will take a new idea or personality that no one has thought of yet, that is exciting to the fans. It's that simple.
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
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Post by Celgress on Dec 20, 2011 17:08:26 GMT -5
Actually I've been seriously considering leaving Pro Wrestling fandom all together, and fully joining MMA fandom, because of the die hard love expressed by the majority of smarks towards the E. Beyond the watered down concept of Sports Entertainment, I see little hope for actual Pro Wrestling to become mainstream again in North America. I hope you don't think hopping on the MMA bandwagon is going to be any better. MMA (mainly UFC) diehards are way worst than anyone you will meet online. If the only way you can enjoy something is if others like it and it's the in thing to be part of, then you are a follower. I just find it hard to enjoy something when the majority of the fanbase involved endlessly bitches about every minor detail. And if I say jumped on the CM Punk Bandwagon (like many online fans have done since July), in spite of never liking Punk in the first place then I'd be a follower, not if I grew tired of endless product directed whining.
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,001
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Post by Celgress on Dec 20, 2011 17:13:46 GMT -5
And why are people so fixated on getting another wrestling boom? If you haven't noticed, the whole world's economy is horrible. If people don't have the money for something, they won't spend it. Even the almighty UFC is feeling the repercussions. I think I worded that poorly. In the mid 90s, I had no clue what a boom period was. Didn't realize I had experienced one in the 80s. I meant that maybe the balancing act of fandom was more balanced. if that makes sense. wrestling was wrestling. not just one brand. even though the wwf worked so hard to be a major brand and were the worldwide brand at that point. fans still considered pro wrestling to be pro wrestling and would watch pro wrestling in general. now, you have people who absolutely refuse to watch TNA, ROH, or anything outside of the brand (WWE).... Bravo, that is precisely what I was referring to in my earlier post. Pro Wrestling as a concept is in trouble (which is why the Indy environment is in such bad shape, and getting worse all the time), Sports Entertainment not so much.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 20, 2011 17:28:59 GMT -5
I hope you don't think hopping on the MMA bandwagon is going to be any better. MMA (mainly UFC) diehards are way worst than anyone you will meet online. If the only way you can enjoy something is if others like it and it's the in thing to be part of, then you are a follower. I just find it hard to enjoy something when the majority of the fanbase involved endlessly bitches about every minor detail. And if I say jumped on the CM Punk Bandwagon (like many online fans have done since July), in spite of never liking Punk in the first place then I'd be a follower, not if I grew tired of endless product directed whining. And you don't think MMA fans don't do the same thing? Visit one of the bigger sites. I would say more but this forum got rules about slamming other messageboards.
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,001
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Post by Celgress on Dec 20, 2011 17:48:34 GMT -5
I just find it hard to enjoy something when the majority of the fanbase involved endlessly bitches about every minor detail. And if I say jumped on the CM Punk Bandwagon (like many online fans have done since July), in spite of never liking Punk in the first place then I'd be a follower, not if I grew tired of endless product directed whining. And you don't think MMA fans don't do the same thing? Visit one of the bigger sites. I would say more but this forum got rules about slamming other messageboards. Maybe instead I'll just stop taking part in the online side of the fandom than. I just find myself hating how being an online fan of Pro Wrestling in North America increasingly equals being a fan of only Sports Entertainment, aka of the WWE. You know what the real ironic part is, when I was a kid, I was always the type of fan who thought the then WWF should reign supreme & that WCW should die a swift death. I guess it is true what they say, be very careful what you wish for because you just might get it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2011 20:15:40 GMT -5
And you don't think MMA fans don't do the same thing? Visit one of the bigger sites. I would say more but this forum got rules about slamming other messageboards. Maybe instead I'll just stop taking part in the online side of the fandom than. I just find myself hating how being an online fan of Pro Wrestling in North America increasingly equals being a fan of only Sports Entertainment, aka of the WWE. You know what the real ironic part is, when I was a kid, I was always the type of fan who thought the then WWF should reign supreme & that WCW should die a swift death. I guess it is true what they say, be very careful what you wish for because you just might get it. You and I must be living in a different universe because the fandom I see here and elsewhere is far from enamored with "Sports Entertainment". My stance on the WWE has been on the fence leaning away from it for the past couple years, I've never been more frustrated with it, and there is an abundance of criticism from others as well. It's just like anything, you go to an MMA forum and there will be a ton of people thinking "UFC or nothing". Not that there's anything wrong with that, people are gonna like what they're gonna like. But this place isn't exactly a haven of people with an unrelenting love of WWE. Anyways to the topic at hand you really can't pin wrestling's diminished mainstream appeal on any one thing. Nepotism plays a part, the antiquated and counterproductive nature of how these companies do business is another, the complete lack of confidence in its talent is another. The shame for what business these companies have found themselves a part of is yet another. Repeating past mistakes and NEVER learning from YEARS upon YEARS of trial and error from WWE and companies of the past counts. Endless problems in today's wrestling industry and honestly I'm not even looking for a boom period. I don't want a boom period. I want wrestling to be a successful niche product that it can be, with logical and non-insulting results and if that catches on then so be it. I don't live or die by wrestling being a mainstream hit but it's such a far cry from what it should be in 2011/2012.
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Post by crimsonwolf on Dec 20, 2011 20:49:15 GMT -5
happening? there's so much pro WWE bias and anti TNA everything going on these days. Even if the product in TNA is lacking, it's still a problem, imo WCW in the mid 90s didn't have the best product ever, but people still gave Nitro a chance. People seem unwilling to give them a chance. As obvious by the Jan 4 through late Spring 2010 Monday Night skirmish. Veteran wrestlers know this and they don't stray far from the WWE after they're no longer being used Some do... that's been addressed as a problem by many, but maybe it's not as big of a problem as fan nepotism. Something that wasn't a huge factor when the last boom kicked in. During the last boom, over the hill wrestlers, who were still very popular, didn't follow or work in fear of this fan trend in my opinion this is why more big marquee wrestlers have avoided signing with TNA. if more had, it would have got even more fans watching TNA, giving the WWE more competition wrestlers who i feel like have done so Steve Austin Chris Jericho MVP Shawn Michaels Batista and many more current WWE stars who chose to stay with WWE as opposed to considering going to the competition now, I understand and accept the argument that TNA just isn't as big as WCW was. still, I think that fan nepotism is a big problem Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, those guys you listed don't want to wrestle for the company because of the backward ass booking TNA has? Hulk Hogan's and Kurt Angle's involvement with the company should have disproved this myth that "hiring big names = ratings." If you don't have consistent and compelling booking, those spikes will be just that, spikes and nothing more.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 20, 2011 21:07:15 GMT -5
I think I worded that poorly. In the mid 90s, I had no clue what a boom period was. Didn't realize I had experienced one in the 80s. I meant that maybe the balancing act of fandom was more balanced. if that makes sense. wrestling was wrestling. not just one brand. even though the wwf worked so hard to be a major brand and were the worldwide brand at that point. fans still considered pro wrestling to be pro wrestling and would watch pro wrestling in general. now, you have people who absolutely refuse to watch TNA, ROH, or anything outside of the brand (WWE) I'm saying that perception and feeling all around has hurt the industry. If guys like Hogan had felt WCW was way beneath them, wrestling wouldn't have evolved into a cable live t.v. phenomena (if that sounds better and is more truthful or hopeful than just saying, "Hey, another boom period ain't happening, because of this") also, i concede to differing viewpoints of what is holding the artform or sport back. a bad product can be considered a bad product. i accept that. still, i think wrestling fans have become way too close minded in the last decade. Fans have tried to give TNA chances, it just so happens that, when they do, TNA doesn't put on a show that keeps them coming back. That's not fan bias (and nepotism is a bad word for it, since that indicates bias based solely on family relationship), that's just TNA not putting on a show that appeals to a wider swath of fans. It's not the fan's responsibility to give a crap, it's the company's responsibility to keep them in. That goes for WWE too, their buyrates and business has gone down as well. Just because another company is bigger doesn't mean a smaller company can't be successful as well, either. I find the idea that fans are the sole driving reason for certain wrestlers not going to TNA to be rather ridiculous, honestly. If fan perception were the most important factor, Angle and Hardy wouldnt' have left WWE for TNA. They went because TNA offered them some advantage that WWE didn't, whether it be easier schedule, more lax policies on personal consumption of various items, etc. The reason those other guys don't try out with TNA is because they don't see those things as an advantage. TNA has gotten Kurt Angle, who was a main eventer at th etime. They got Jeff Hardy, one of the most over guys on the WWE roster at the time.
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Post by clashofchampains on Dec 20, 2011 21:28:20 GMT -5
And why are people so fixated on getting another wrestling boom? If you haven't noticed, the whole world's economy is horrible. If people don't have the money for something, they won't spend it. Even the almighty UFC is feeling the repercussions. Because another boom period would help the economy. And help morals when people don't have much money.
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Post by jadison on Dec 20, 2011 21:36:40 GMT -5
The way I see it, WWE has built up some goodwill with this part of their fanbase lately, while TNA has gone out of their way to do the opposite until the last couple of months. 2 years ago, about this time in 2009, I preferred TNA over WWE. In the time that followed, TNA went out of their way to say "hey you liked what was going on before Hogan/Bischoff? Well f*** you! that only got you so far, brother"
Now...WWE's gotten a lot better and TNA has gotten a lot worse, and now those wrestlers I was really into in 2009 are worthless for the most part, booked into irrelevance. AJ Styles is main eventing PPVs yet still feels like an afterthought to me, thats the kind of damage TNA's booking has done.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2011 21:52:01 GMT -5
now, you have people who absolutely refuse to watch TNA, ROH, or anything outside of the brand (WWE) Outside of trolls on Youtube and the like making comments to the effect of "WWE sux/TNA rulez" and vice versa I seriously doubt any normal person refuses to watch another company for any kind of sinister reason. Seriously, there's no big conspiracy. Less people watch TNA because a lot of people who've tried it over the years didn't take to the product. It's that simple.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Dec 20, 2011 22:51:03 GMT -5
Let me preface this with saying I am a fan of WWE but am in no way related to any McMahon or Levesque. I was also on and off again a fan of TNA. It's been more off then on as time goes by. To say WWE has everything locked down and that's why TNA can't succeed is just offering them another excuse not to own up to there failures. There was a time when TNA was a much smaller company that fans at WWE shows chanted TNA during the bad segments. So saying the fans blindly follow a name brand is kinda a cop out.
The thing is and I have pointed this out numerous times. WWE gives you a reason to care. Yes WWE messes up many fan favorites but when TNA does it they brag about it. They seem obsessed with pissing off people who invest time or interest in their product. Take for example how we got to our current heavyweight championship situation. They build and build Roode up. Just so Hogan can LOL in tweets at the fans who bought the PPV. So all those people that got behind a Roode push are left unsatisfied. They instead give the title to his partner. This makes some people happy. Swerve! Its on Roode now and the underdog babyface you rooted for is heel. And in the end all this feels like its just a build up to put the title on the guy who totally ruined the main event of one of there PPVs who is face now.
Look at career paths. John Cena entered the WWE shortly after AJ Styles started with TNA. AJ still is "almost ready" to carry the company. He just needs that one rub from the next star of the attitude era they can dig up. Samoa Joe and CM Punk each signed with the company they are now with in 2005. Samoa Joe rose quickly and then had the legs cut out from under him. At many times it looked like WWE would tank Punk's career, but instead he became a merch machine and top of the card performer for the foreseeable future. God, can you imagine what would have happened to Ryder if Russo were scripting his destiny?
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Post by Michael Coello on Dec 20, 2011 23:17:14 GMT -5
Take for example how we got to our current heavyweight championship situation. They build and build Roode up. Just so Hogan can LOL in tweets at the fans who bought the PPV. You know, for all the talk of people saying the blind hate is just imaginary and all that, the real trouble is that people seem to take s*** so damn personal. Eric Bischoff posts something, people here take it so personal and start yelling and bitching and moaning about it, when it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM! Hulk Hogan does some post, same thing: has nothing to do with anyone here, everything thinks it's a direct f*** you. Roode loses his match and Storm wins the title, and it's all just a big F You to the FAN Boards and the internet. It's not an interesting turn to a storyline to establish them both in the main event scene, but something to piss off you. i'm sorry, but every time a storyline doesn't go the way you plan it doesn't make it a big middle finger to the internet community, nor is every tweet off some guys twitter page needs to rile everyone up here.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Dec 20, 2011 23:30:41 GMT -5
Take for example how we got to our current heavyweight championship situation. They build and build Roode up. Just so Hogan can LOL in tweets at the fans who bought the PPV. You know, for all the talk of people saying the blind hate is just imaginary and all that, the real trouble is that people seem to take s*** so damn personal. Eric Bischoff posts something, people here take it so personal and start yelling and bitching and moaning about it, when it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM! Hulk Hogan does some post, same thing: has nothing to do with anyone here, everything thinks it's a direct f*** you. Roode loses his match and Storm wins the title, and it's all just a big F You to the FAN Boards and the internet. It's not an interesting turn to a storyline to establish them both in the main event scene, but something to piss off you. i'm sorry, but every time a storyline doesn't go the way you plan it doesn't make it a big middle finger to the internet community, nor is every tweet off some guys twitter page needs to rile everyone up here. And by the same measure none of criticisms of TNA are personal attacks on those who go out of their way to defend the show. Yet they seem to take it just as personally when it equally has nothing to do with them.
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Post by Michael Coello on Dec 20, 2011 23:45:55 GMT -5
You know, for all the talk of people saying the blind hate is just imaginary and all that, the real trouble is that people seem to take s*** so damn personal. Eric Bischoff posts something, people here take it so personal and start yelling and bitching and moaning about it, when it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM! Hulk Hogan does some post, same thing: has nothing to do with anyone here, everything thinks it's a direct f*** you. Roode loses his match and Storm wins the title, and it's all just a big F You to the FAN Boards and the internet. It's not an interesting turn to a storyline to establish them both in the main event scene, but something to piss off you. i'm sorry, but every time a storyline doesn't go the way you plan it doesn't make it a big middle finger to the internet community, nor is every tweet off some guys twitter page needs to rile everyone up here. And by the same measure none of criticisms of TNA are personal attacks on those who go out of their way to defend the show. Yet they seem to take it just as personally when it equally has nothing to do with them. As well as those that take personally things that has nothing to do with them over things other people that take things that have nothing to do with them over things that other other people that take things that have nothing to do now with them.
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Post by sybaku on Dec 20, 2011 23:46:31 GMT -5
Take for example how we got to our current heavyweight championship situation. They build and build Roode up. Just so Hogan can LOL in tweets at the fans who bought the PPV. You know, for all the talk of people saying the blind hate is just imaginary and all that, the real trouble is that people seem to take s*** so damn personal. Eric Bischoff posts something, people here take it so personal and start yelling and bitching and moaning about it, when it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM! Hulk Hogan does some post, same thing: has nothing to do with anyone here, everything thinks it's a direct f*** you. Roode loses his match and Storm wins the title, and it's all just a big F You to the FAN Boards and the internet. It's not an interesting turn to a storyline to establish them both in the main event scene, but something to piss off you. i'm sorry, but every time a storyline doesn't go the way you plan it doesn't make it a big middle finger to the internet community, nor is every tweet off some guys twitter page needs to rile everyone up here. So I guess when Easy E and Hogan posted about "Internet Nerds" and "Internet Marks" and how they were laughing at them that wasn't a direct assault against forums like this? But on topic I swore by TNA for several years, on Jan 4th I watched TNA over Raw only switching it back to watch Bret return. And you know what I defended them hiring Val Venis, I said it took balls to have a Bi character on display, hell I even said Rob Terry wasn't a bad investment I really did try and what did I get in return? Sleep deprived Venis crapping through a match and winning I might add against Christopher Daniels, Orlando Jordan squirting a semen like fluid on Rob Terry, and Rob Terry well he's Rob Terry that wasn't TNA's fault. Still I said it was ok, it wasn't that bad. Even when Hogan preceded to make Abyss superpowered via WWE HOF ring I still watched, even when Samoa Joe was randomly kidnapped by Ninjas, even when Immortal dominated day in and day out, but you know what eventually I got bored of the same stupid match endings, I got tired of 20 min Authority role promos, but mostly I just got tired of not being entertained and at times being downright disgusted by a product that I used to show off to friends when I wanted to prove wrestling was cool. I didn't stop watching TNA because it was the cool thing to do, I stopped watching because they became WWE-lite and why watch WWE-lite when the real WWE is on twice a week already
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Dec 20, 2011 23:48:40 GMT -5
Nope I don't take it personally. I just don't get excited by swerving fans just to swerve them. If that type of plot development excites a person then this show is probably for them. However I think you will find that traditional character development paths work just as well. Seriously couldn't they have built up the characters without TRYING to piss off people. Look at the WWE guys I named. Did CM Punk, Zack Ryder, or John Cena swerve their way to be top merchandise sellers and main eventers? They all took rather simple paths to the top. Develop character, develop feuds, resolve feuds. They've worked with the veterans of the WWE but were always treated as being on the level with them. TNA shows no faith in their talent so fans accept that as the SOP and also show no faith in TNA talent.
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