If Bret didn't screw Bret ...

[saintpat]

Let's suppose for a minute the Montreal Screwjob never happened -- either Brett decides to put Shawn over clean, or he does the job for someone else who then drops the strap to Shawn or he vacates the belt on Raw and rides off into the WCW sunset.

Whatever happens after this stays the same as what really did happen after he moved to WCW (except for the lumberjack match with VKM a couple WM's ago). So that's the only thing that changes.

So here are the questions:

1) Would his legacy and popularity in retirement be greater or lesser or about the same?

2) Would Shawn's legacy or popularity be any different?

3) Does it matter how the screwjob doesn't happen -- i.e. is it different if Bret loses clean to Shawn in Montreal vs. vacating the title vs. winning it from someone other than Bret on a double-handoff?

Let's assume that no one ever learns that there was a big deal backstage over whether Bret was going to put HBK over, just maybe that there was tension between Hart and Michaels.


I think somehow Bret would be regarded/remembered a little -- not a lot, but somewhat -- less fondly. By that I mean less fans marking for him today, or those fans not thinking of him as highly as they do.

A lot of people believe his gimmick (including Bret, I think) -- best ever is/was/will be. He didn't accomplishment just a whole lot in WCW and without the controversy I think he would be more forgotten, or at least not remembered as well, but the screwjob made him a sympathetic figure and kept a lot of people more interested over the years.

What do you think?

[rnrk supports BLM]

1. I think the main thing that'd change would be that there'd be a lot less "Will Bret ever return?" speculation over the following decade, if it was less-publicly known that bridges had been badly burned. All in all, though, I think he'd still end up where he is now by 2012, as another "respected veteran legend" who shows up on RAW every now and then to a good pop.

2. Shawn would've looked like less of a douchebag, but the majority of fandom came around to respecting him anyway, so not much would change in the long run.

3. If Bret vacated the title (and to a lesser extent, if he lost it to some obvious transitional guy like Shamrock who then immediately lost to HBK), I think it would hurt his reputation slightly, because that's the sort of thing he always bitched about people like Hogan and Michaels doing, but again, by 2012 it'd mostly be water under the bridge and he'd just be remembered as that guy who put on good matches in main events in the early '90s that not many people watched.

[The Possum]

Honestly, I think Shawn's career would have gone on about the same, but Bret wouldn't have nearly as much fanfare. I envision him having a path a lot like Flair's, where he didn't always get the glory he deserved in his time, but it was made up for with the respect he'd have in the twilight of his career.

[celticjobber]

I think the biggest change would've been for Vince McMahon and the Vince/Austin feud.

Screwing Bret really led into Vince's heel turn and his evil boss character when he was feuding with Stone Cold.

Maybe then Owen would've lived, and Bret would've came back to the WWE alot sooner. Bret was a really big star world-wide (a bit moreso than in the US) in the mid-90's, and he would still be fondly remembered.

Shawn Michaels' legacy would likely be the same.

[JCBaggee]

Sept 25, 2012 0:00:01 GMT -5 celticjobber said:

I think the biggest change would've been for Vince McMahon and the Vince/Austin feud.

Screwing Bret really led into Vince's heel turn and his evil boss character when he was feuding with Stone Cold.

Maybe then Owen would've lived, and Bret would've came back to the WWE alot sooner. Bret was a really big star world-wide (a bit moreso than in the US) in the mid-90's, and he would still be fondly remembered.

Shawn Michaels' legacy would likely be the same.

This pretty much nails it. Bret and Shawn would wind up more or less the same, just with a lot less publicly aired vitriol, but Stone Cold's career would have stalled significantly without a corporate villain for him to face. He probably still would have made it, but it would have been way later.

[RowdyRobbyPiper]

Considering how polarizing the MSJ was and still is, his standing among fans would be higher if it hadn't happened.

[Jimmy]

I think the screwjob really effected Bret psychologically in WCW. I think he would have been much better had it not occurred.

[RowdyRobbyPiper]

Yeah, he might have even helped WCW beat the WWE.

[The Ichi]

Sept 26, 2012 13:01:11 GMT -5 Jimmy said:

I think the screwjob really effected Bret psychologically in WCW. I think he would have been much better had it not occurred.

He still would have had his brothers death to deal with, but yeah, 98 would have probably seen some REALLY good material from him.

["Handsome" Whitey Fats]

We wouldn't have had to hear his endless whining, after he was the one who refused to do the right thing.

[lildude8218]

the ending of the Sting/Hogan match wouldn't have been ruined by that screwjob nonsense

["Handsome" Whitey Fats]

Sept 26, 2012 13:49:06 GMT -5 lildude8218 said:

the ending of the Sting/Hogan match wouldn't have been ruined by that screwjob nonsense

A lot more was wrong with that match than just that.

Hell, Hogan's idea of Sting squashing him in 5 minutes would have been better.

[Razor Gives It A 4/10]

Goldberg would have never ended Bret's career.

[percymania]

If the screwjob never happened, I would have expected Bret to join WCW as a heel and align with the nWo. He probably would have been forced into a face turn after the Owen's death, if they didn't already decided to turn him before them.

[Deleted]

Earl Hebner wouldn't have "Damn Right I Did It!" T-shirts to sell. But, seriously...

I think it all evened out over a longer period of time.

If the MSJ never happened, Bret & Shawn probably would have been able to shake hands without an issue when Bret was inducted into the WWE HOF in 2006. (Heck, I wouldn't put it past them to have Shawn induct him.) Bret could have had a role at that 'Mania - one in which he said he wasn't going to attend because he still harbored bad feelings for Shawn.

Although if you want to start looking at other factors that got involved, it's just too time-consuming to just do in 5-minutes.

[lmagicdancer1]

Sept 25, 2012 1:11:39 GMT -5 JCBaggee said:

Sept 25, 2012 0:00:01 GMT -5 celticjobber said:

I think the biggest change would've been for Vince McMahon and the Vince/Austin feud.

Screwing Bret really led into Vince's heel turn and his evil boss character when he was feuding with Stone Cold.

Maybe then Owen would've lived, and Bret would've came back to the WWE alot sooner. Bret was a really big star world-wide (a bit moreso than in the US) in the mid-90's, and he would still be fondly remembered.

Shawn Michaels' legacy would likely be the same.

This pretty much nails it. Bret and Shawn would wind up more or less the same, just with a lot less publicly aired vitriol, but Stone Cold's career would have stalled significantly without a corporate villain for him to face. He probably still would have made it, but it would have been way later.

I believe that the Vince heel turn would have still happened. It was foreshadowed as early as wrestlemania 12 when they started to allude to vince being the owner. then, various wrestlers would have shoving matches with vince or would stare angerly at him. It might not have been as iconic as it was, though.

[tms]

Sept 26, 2012 13:47:42 GMT -5 "Handsome" Whitey Fats said:

We wouldn't have had to hear his endless whining, after he was the one who refused to do the right thing.

Right. How many times did Shawn vacate his titles again? I'll never blame Bret for his refusal given who Shawn was at the time and his attitude.

[RowdyRobbyPiper]

Sept 30, 2012 0:14:04 GMT -5 tms said:

Sept 26, 2012 13:47:42 GMT -5 "Handsome" Whitey Fats said:

We wouldn't have had to hear his endless whining, after he was the one who refused to do the right thing.

Right. How many times did Shawn vacate his titles again? I'll never blame Bret for his refusal given who Shawn was at the time and his attitude.

QFT

[cabbageboy]

Honestly, things would have taken a bit longer to get going but the end results would have largely been the same. WCW still would have had no clue what to do with Bret and still would have done something dumb with Sting/Hogan in the long run, probably similar to what they did minus the goofy Starrcade finish. The WWF might have taken a bit longer to really rev up in the ratings without the immediately near 1.0 boost it provided. Maybe some minor things like Bulldog staying would have occurred.

People forget that Vince mostly wanted the furor to die down. He was mainly off TV for the rest of 1997 after the "Bret screwed Bret" speech and the "Attitude" speech, only popping up to tell us he didn't want Austin as champion before WM. Raw was still clearly better than Nitro most weeks and eventually the ratings would have shown it.

If Montreal did anything for anyone, it was HBK. Let's face it, the combo of screwing Taker at HIAC, screwing Bulldog in England, and screwing Bret in Montreal made him the most hated heel in the business. Is there anyone who wasn't ready for Austin to destroy this scumbag?

[Deleted]

Sept 30, 2012 0:14:04 GMT -5 tms said:

Sept 26, 2012 13:47:42 GMT -5 "Handsome" Whitey Fats said:

We wouldn't have had to hear his endless whining, after he was the one who refused to do the right thing.

Right. How many times did Shawn vacate his titles again? I'll never blame Bret for his refusal given who Shawn was at the time and his attitude.

I'd rebut that statement, but I'm a little busy looking for my smile.