erisi236
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Post by erisi236 on Jun 18, 2012 19:42:11 GMT -5
Just for the sake of curiosity,in the FAN community opnion,wich are the less sexist female characters in gaming or game in general? Heather Mason and Madison Paige off the top of my head. And it's funny when I hear about this subject when every girl I happen to know is just as hard core a gamer as I am, and probably more so. When I hear people whine about Bayonetta in particular I laugh as actual girls who buy this stuff love it to death.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jun 18, 2012 19:43:03 GMT -5
Yeh,Samus Aran is always a strong contender...even if they had the whole Zero Suit and Other M thing going on.
And i completely love Bayonetta,alot sexualized or not,she kicks ass and is awesome.Tough i understand why someone would point fingers to her.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jun 18, 2012 19:44:17 GMT -5
Just for the sake of curiosity,in the FAN community opnion,wich are the less sexist female characters in gaming or game in general? Hmmm...well, I mostly play JRPGs, and I'd say a lot of the old-school 16-bit Final Fantasy females were portrayed pretty well. Princess Salsa, Celes, Terra, Rydia...they weren't damsels in distress, they weren't "fan service", some of them actually had pretty good physical attacks outside of the stereotypical "I can only cast healing spells" arsenal. And Samus Aran...I like the fact that for the most part, she has REALISTIC ARMOR for the situation. None of this pieces of tiny chainmail that leave critical body areas completely exposed. That "Justin Bailey" cheat in the first game nonwithstanding, of course, but even then it wasn't overdone. And then they decided to throw all of that away when they introduced Zero Suit Samus, and ZSS has been in damn near every Metroid game since its introduction. Kinda messed up how they went from mostly realistic armor for so long and then gave us a skin tight blue suit to flip around in. :-\
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jun 18, 2012 19:47:00 GMT -5
Yeh,Samus Aran is always a strong contender...even if they had the whole Zero Suit and Other M thing going on. And i completely love Bayonetta,alot sexualized or not,she kicks ass and is awesome.Tough i understand why someone would point fingers to her. The funny thing about Bayonetta's design is, despite what a lot of people think(because of how sexualized she is), she wasn't designed by a man. Everything about Bayonetta's look was made by a woman. So really it isn't just men who keep perpetuating the problem of sexism in games. Women themselves contribute to it too.
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Post by lockedontarget on Jun 18, 2012 19:48:04 GMT -5
And there's nothing wrong with a character being intentionally sexy. Tifa Lockheart is sexualized but she is not treated like a shallow sex object, outside of one or two bad CG scenes. She is a full fledged character who has a personality behind being hot and kicking ass, and a real developmental arc.
And there's not even anything wrong with some blatant pandering sometimes, either. I'm perfectly fine with things like Lollipop Chainsaw existing. The problem is that there just isn't enough female characters that don't pander to male fantasy, the ones that are there are the exceptions when they should be the norm.
EDIT: I would actually say Bayonetta is one of the rare instances of a hyper-sexualized character handled really well. While she is clearly appealing to men, there is a certain quality about her that makes her an appealing power fantasy for women, which is something they rarely get. Women, generally, like to be sexy! But they don't want to be defined by being sexy.
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malys
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Post by malys on Jun 18, 2012 19:49:35 GMT -5
Hmmm...well, I mostly play JRPGs, and I'd say a lot of the old-school 16-bit Final Fantasy females were portrayed pretty well. Princess Salsa, Celes, Terra, Rydia...they weren't damsels in distress, they weren't "fan service", some of them actually had pretty good physical attacks outside of the stereotypical "I can only cast healing spells" arsenal. And Samus Aran...I like the fact that for the most part, she has REALISTIC ARMOR for the situation. None of this pieces of tiny chainmail that leave critical body areas completely exposed. That "Justin Bailey" cheat in the first game nonwithstanding, of course, but even then it wasn't overdone. And then they decided to throw all of that away when they introduced Zero Suit Samus, and ZSS has been in damn near every Metroid game since its introduction. Kinda messed up how they went from mostly realistic armor for so long and then gave us a skin tight blue suit to flip around in. :-\ Oh wow, that's a shame...it's been awhile since I picked up a newer Metroid game, so I had no idea. Did anyone ever play Dark Wizard on Sega CD? Krystal and Robin are two of my favorite female characters in any game. Agrias from Final Fantasy Tactics as well.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jun 18, 2012 19:49:40 GMT -5
Yeh,Samus Aran is always a strong contender...even if they had the whole Zero Suit and Other M thing going on. And i completely love Bayonetta,alot sexualized or not,she kicks ass and is awesome.Tough i understand why someone would point fingers to her. The funny thing about Bayonetta's design is, despite what a lot of people think(because of how sexualized she is), she wasn't designed by a man. Everything about Bayonetta's look was made by a woman. So really it isn't just men who keep perpetuating the problem of sexism in games. Women themselves contribute to it too. Yeh, i'm aware of that,it actually amuses me. The Bayonetta design,all by a woman. The thing about bayonetta is that they dont focus SO much in their body(except for the sake of a few scenes).Her design is cool,except with a bit of fanservice,wich wont kill anyone.But they manage to take the MAIN focus away from the sex appeal,and more about how Bayonetta kicks all,and all about her personality and attitude. I think placing a little of "fanservice"(be for the guys,or for the ladies) is fine,and long as it dont take too much away from the game,or become the focus
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jun 18, 2012 19:50:46 GMT -5
And there's nothing wrong with a character being intentionally sexy. Tifa Lockheart is sexualized but she is not treated like a shallow sex object, outside of one or two bad CG scenes. She is a full fledged character who has a personality behind being hot and kicking ass, and a real developmental arc. And there's not even anything wrong with some blatant pandering sometimes, either. I'm perfectly fine with things like Lollipop Chainsaw existing. The problem is that there just isn't enough female characters that don't pander to male fantasy, the ones that are there are the exceptions when they should be the norm. Pretty much. Though to be fair, Tifa was probably a bad example, because she was only sexualized so we could actually tell she was a chick because of how badly defined the character models for FFVII were. That's the sole reason why they made her knockers so big.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jun 18, 2012 19:52:23 GMT -5
One that i'm looking VERY forward to see how things turn out,is the protagonist of ACIII Liberations.
She is a ladie,she kicks ass,she wasnt sexualized so far,if there is a character that can fight the "sexism" of videogames is her.
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malys
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Post by malys on Jun 18, 2012 19:53:07 GMT -5
And there's nothing wrong with a character being intentionally sexy. Tifa Lockheart is sexualized but she is not treated like a shallow sex object, outside of one or two bad CG scenes. She is a full fledged character who has a personality behind being hot and kicking ass, and a real developmental arc. And there's not even anything wrong with some blatant pandering sometimes, either. I'm perfectly fine with things like Lollipop Chainsaw existing. The problem is that there just isn't enough female characters that don't pander to male fantasy, the ones that are there are the exceptions when they should be the norm. Agreed, I think even as a female game developer, I would want to create characters that I can relate more to. For some women part of that is being sexy, but it probably won't be as over the top as some of the characters out there. Not my cup of tea, I'm more of the "not here to be hot, but here to crush your skull" kind of character, but that's my choice for my creations.
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erisi236
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Post by erisi236 on Jun 18, 2012 19:53:58 GMT -5
Well really, who's going to design a game character, particularly in a fantasy/action game, male or female that looks like one of us? ;D Also random Bayonetta cosplay, cuz' she's cool
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malys
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Post by malys on Jun 18, 2012 19:55:20 GMT -5
Pretty much. Though to be fair, Tifa was probably a bad example, because she was only sexualized so we could actually tell she was a chick because of how badly defined the character models for FFVII were. That's the sole reason why they made her knockers so big. I also feel like those things got WAAAAAAAY exaggerated by fanart and whatnot. I mean I rolled my eyes when I played the game originally, but it seems like they really took on a life of their own once fanboys got a hold of them (no puns intended).
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Post by Cyno on Jun 18, 2012 19:55:39 GMT -5
Chris from Suikoden III comes to mind, instantly. I want to say Samus, but even before Other M the game rewarded you with cheesecake pictures of her in a bikini or the skin tight Zero Suit for beating the game the right way, though Metroid Prime was lacking in this fanservice entirely, which is nice. But as far as actual gameplay goes, Samus is a really good example, again outside from the aformentioned Other M. I also want to say Yunica from Ys Origin. She acts and plays a lot like your typical impulsive male JRPG protagonist while still being feminine. And she's also modestly dressed and doesn't have an obvious thing for any men. I'm going to say TERA Online, too. EVERYONE dresses like a skank in that game, not just the women. Yay equal opportunity objectification. Though speaking of MMO's, while in the grand scheme of things she's a relatively minor character, I love Lady Liadrin from World of Warcraft. In lore, she's the first ever Blood Knight and also is arguably THE leader the Blood Elves needed after Prince Kael'thas betrayed them. She stepped up and along with Prophet Velen of the Draenei and the Naaru, led Azeroth forces against the Burning Legion and restored the Sunwell. Really hope she comes back in a more prominent role in later expansions, but then Blizzard just seems to outright forget the Blood Elves and Draenei exist as parts of the lore. :/ Lastly, there's Commander Shepard in Mass Effect. Because of Jennifer Hale's excellent voice acting I have a hard time thinking of the character as her male counterpart. Outside of potential love interests and some casual clothes (and neither has anything that can be considered overtly sexy), they're pretty much the same character. But it's all about how the characters are portrayed. I have no problems with sexy character designs. But If the sexiness of the character is a major, defining trait, then there's a problem.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Jun 18, 2012 19:56:18 GMT -5
Sex in video games? I'm for it!
*looks around*
What?
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jun 18, 2012 19:56:19 GMT -5
And there's nothing wrong with a character being intentionally sexy. Tifa Lockheart is sexualized but she is not treated like a shallow sex object, outside of one or two bad CG scenes. She is a full fledged character who has a personality behind being hot and kicking ass, and a real developmental arc. And there's not even anything wrong with some blatant pandering sometimes, either. I'm perfectly fine with things like Lollipop Chainsaw existing. The problem is that there just isn't enough female characters that don't pander to male fantasy, the ones that are there are the exceptions when they should be the norm. Agreed, I think even as a female game developer, I would want to create characters that I can relate more to. For some women part of that is being sexy, but it probably won't be as over the top as some of the characters out there. Not my cup of tea, I'm more of the "not here to be hot, but here to crush your skull" kind of character, but that's my choice for my creations. I'm on my way to be a game developer(All right,start the college!) and i will be sure to chekc the girls here about female character because i have a game in mind for one.And the ones here looks really clever!*cheap pop* so feedback would be good. One thing i think about going too far is for example..DoA goes TOO FAR for sexualization(for god sake they spend more time on breasts mechanics than game mechanics)
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malys
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Post by malys on Jun 18, 2012 19:56:36 GMT -5
Well really, who's going to design a game character, particularly in a fantasy/action game, male or female that looks like one of us? ;D I'll be honest, I'm working on a game right now, with a female protagonist, and she really is a bit average "one of us" in looks, as I envision her.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jun 18, 2012 19:57:26 GMT -5
I share concerns about the objectification of the female form in media. But I also believe in being realistic; and outrage over cartoonishly make-believe women in video games is just plain ridiculous. There is a reason that such characters appear in made up, fantasy settings-because it is NOT REAL. I get more concerned about the way WWE divas dress than how female characters in video games appear. And I dare point out it is a two way street; with only a few exceptions I do not see a lot of short, overweight male characters, or even very many wearing glasses either. This guy just has way too much time on his hands. Do I dare ask, how many hours did he spend pouring over these highly offensive games to gather all his examples? Sometimes celebrities like to get involved with making fantasy reality. But for themselves? Or for someone else so that they might be purposefully looked at sexually (as a sexual subject? or a sexual object?). Mind you, some celebrities parlay the sexuality of their bodies when being avid video gamers to further their persona in the public eye, whether or not their status as 'authentic' video game fans is legitimate or not. Are they being exploited or are they doing the exploiting? But having said that, there is a history of sexualizing video game characters, especially those characters who have their own franchises dedicated to them. Why do these characters persist in the popular imagination? Are they engaging, psychologically in-depth, flawed, tragic, real, and believable characters? A kind of role model for young women to see themselves asserting power (often wielding via the phallic power of the gun)? But doesn't that also exclude the practicality of abnormally large and impossible breasts and non-tactile raiding wear? What, then, are the limits of fantasy? For one, the realms of the subhuman: the animal, the monster, the abnormal creation. Representations of women in media and narratives fall along these lines. Women in fashion advertising are shown so often on all fours, like an animal. No less, the form of the position has its analogue in sex: doggy-style. Women as monsters (from myths like Medusa to the vagina-denta horror flick "Teeth") also partake in these tropes. Sometimes they even converge, but the ugliness of the subhuman are anaesthetized by cliches of femininity: the curves of breasts and buttocks, the lines of legs and the back, the softness of the skin and lips. Again, these ideas are culturally constructed, inasmuch as men as being hard-bodied, strong, and active (as opposed to passive) are as well. Even the anonymity of the video game protagonist, which means that men and women potentially could identify with this character, becomes codified over time to the binary gender system. Or, if not the binary gender system of the human, then the alien, the foreign, the unfamiliar. Fantasy becomes the alibi to foray into new territories of experience, furthermore grafting the colonizing gaze onto the body of the woman to legitimate this endeavour. But what was once alien can also become connective, creative, and conjunctive as well. The United States, for example, as a nation founded and bolstered by immigrant populations benefits from the heterogeneity of national, racial, and ethnic identity (the 'melting pot' analogy, however, negates the emancipatory thrust behind this project). Yes, fantasy isn't 'real', in the sense that these fictional characters don't exist in reality as we experience it. However, what we come to think of as being reality is real insofar as it remains static or becomes mutable. Ideas of female/feminine identity, as represented in mass media (including video games), will always fall short if it's determined by men (developers) or it only includes men in the discourse (gamers). The fact that these video games and video game characters aren't real shouldn't be an excuse to ignore what amounts to problematic representations of half the population *for* half the population (plus the other half, men, who make up in sum the whole of video game culture). Can video game characters be sexy? Yes. Should that be their only defining attribute? No. Should they be sexy for someone else's approval? No. Nor should female gamers be excluded from the community because of their gender just because some men (as Charlie Brooker puts it, "these idiotic pebbledicks represent a tiny proportion of men"... hardly a commitment to misandry as previously alluded to by another poster) don't like their presence. It's like pro wrestling in America: yes, it's not 'real', but there are still issues regarding representations of race, gender, and sexuality, systemic problems regarding business practices, like the independent contractor clause of contracts or the proliferation of drugs/alcohol to stave off injury, plus the stressful touring schedule that still grinds bodies down.
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malys
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Post by malys on Jun 18, 2012 19:57:33 GMT -5
Chris from Suikoden III comes to mind, instantly. EXCELLENT example!
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Post by lockedontarget on Jun 18, 2012 19:58:36 GMT -5
And there's nothing wrong with a character being intentionally sexy. Tifa Lockheart is sexualized but she is not treated like a shallow sex object, outside of one or two bad CG scenes. She is a full fledged character who has a personality behind being hot and kicking ass, and a real developmental arc. And there's not even anything wrong with some blatant pandering sometimes, either. I'm perfectly fine with things like Lollipop Chainsaw existing. The problem is that there just isn't enough female characters that don't pander to male fantasy, the ones that are there are the exceptions when they should be the norm. Pretty much. Though to be fair, Tifa was probably a bad example, because she was only sexualized so we could actually tell she was a chick because of how badly defined the character models for FFVII were. That's the sole reason why they made her knockers so big. That doesn't really add up. Aerith and Yuffie and Elena and Scarlet and so on were fine. I think she had big boobs because they wanted her to have big boobs. They aren't even that big, really, outside of the CG. Her regular combat model and her official art makes her look like a realistically busty woman. Which is fine! Some women have big boobs! And in the case of FF7, the women have a variety of body types. Tifa is absolutely a sexualized character. She is clearly meant to be "hot". Long flowing hair, miniskirt, tight white top, tiny waist. But that's okay. She is not defined by her body. The game doesn't relentlessly objectify her. She is a strong and developed character who happens to have sex appeal. That's absolutely fine. Though whoever is responsible for that ridiculous CG scene of her when the Weapons arise deserves a slap.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jun 18, 2012 19:58:43 GMT -5
Well really, who's going to design a game character, particularly in a fantasy/action game, male or female that looks like one of us? ;D I'll be honest, I'm working on a game right now, with a female protagonist, and she really is a bit average "one of us" in looks, as I envision her. You are working on a gfame?I hope you dont mind if in the future (or even right now)i could ask tips on how to work,etc from you? It's like a dream to me,and help would be appreciated,i had no idea this forum had another one in the game industry ;D ..alright,i'm still not in the game industyr,but SOON...soon.
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