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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Jan 3, 2012 14:55:19 GMT -5
So here we are in this new worked-shoot era of Punk, according to some, including "The Masked Man" of Deadspin/Grantland fame.
A lot has been made about how Punk and Twitter have been co-opted by the WWE and how Punk has turned into Cena-lite once he got the belt.
But how about this Jericho thing? I think a good argument can be made that his return last night was more influential and impactful than Punk's big promo that started it all. I think Jericho's debut that flipped the script and sort of held a mirror up to fans to face themselves and the business is the real dawning of a meta-reality on working the fans and blurring kayfabe lines while still creating a whole new strong kayfabe.
What say you? Was Punk's worked-shoot about quitting that got such coverage bigger/better than the risky Jericho debut (without even saying a word)?
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ZERO
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Post by ZERO on Jan 3, 2012 14:57:13 GMT -5
So here we are in this new worked-shoot era of Punk, according to some, including "The Masked Man" of Deadspin/Grantland fame. A lot has been made about how Punk and Twitter have been co-opted by the WWE and how Punk has turned into Cena-lite once he got the belt. But how about this Jericho thing? I think a good argument can be made that his return last night was more influential and impactful than Punk's big promo that started it all. I think Jericho's debut that flipped the script and sort of held a mirror up to fans to face themselves and the business is the real dawning of a meta-reality on working the fans and blurring kayfabe lines while still creating a whole new strong kayfabe. What say you? Was Punk's worked-shoot about quitting that got such coverage bigger/better than the risky Jericho debut (without even saying a word)? I want to wait a while and see where the Jericho stuff is going. Then I feel the two can be compared. We know what happened with Punk, but don't really have a feel for where Jericho is going this time.
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Post by crabnebula on Jan 3, 2012 14:57:51 GMT -5
Punk's promo was so out of the blue, just like NEXUS forming. we expected Jericho to do something, which set us up for too much anticipation, which always leads to a little disappointment. the buzz after what Punk did, and the hopes everyone had still has, are (were) bigger than this with Jericho
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543Y2J
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Post by 543Y2J on Jan 3, 2012 14:59:04 GMT -5
I think it may be too soon to tell what Jericho has done, or even how he has done it . At the moment im saying Punk, but as you say Jericho's return could turn out to be historically significant for breaking through into a new area of kayfabe that has not been seen (atleast not in the recent era)
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MrBRulzOK
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Jan 3, 2012 15:00:36 GMT -5
Not even close. Punk's promo had people raving about how great it was, some even proclaiming it was a promo that would make him for the rest of his career, alot of these being people in the wrestling business itself. It resulted in him getting the biggest push that's he ever gotten, landed him a substantial contract that he likely would've never even dreamed of had he not gotten to cut it, and even got the mainstream media to notice the guy, something that hasn't happened due to the actions of a wrestler in awhile.
Jericho on the other hand... well I'm not sure what it accomplished. Yes, it was impressive that the guy managed to turn the crowd on him without saying a word and it was definitely entertaining stuff, but I guarantee it will not be even close to as memorable as Punk's promo down the line.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 3, 2012 15:01:08 GMT -5
Personally, I think Punk's a little better off having dialed the douchebag meter down since the turn.
If anything, I'd say Ryder's push is probably the biggest indicator that WWE is trying new things, even if in the end it doesn't turn out to be historically significant.
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Post by flatsdomino on Jan 3, 2012 15:02:21 GMT -5
Risky things like Jericho's stunt last night are basically able to happen BECAUSE of Punk's promo, so it's the Punker on this one in terms of importance.
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Jan 3, 2012 15:02:39 GMT -5
Ladies and gents, I don't think there is any doubt what Jericho was doing. That was not a sincere face debut.
I think he's doing something that is pure performance art whereas I think Punk just aired smark grievances on a national scale.
Punk's problem is with the Company, in short. Jericho's at war with the audience and what the audience laps up every week.
And THAT is the big difference and why Jericho is so much more important. Jericho is pointing out the real culprit. Punk is pandering to smarks and telling the fans that it isn't their fault, but rather Vince McMahon, his son-in-law, and Johnny Ace that are the problem.
Jericho is saying, "Look at yourself. Look at how easily you are manipulated."
Am I the only one that sees that?
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Jan 3, 2012 15:05:21 GMT -5
Not even close. Punk's promo had people raving about how great it was, some even proclaiming it was a promo that would make him for the rest of his career, alot of these being people in the wrestling business itself. It resulted in him getting the biggest push that's he ever gotten, landed him a substantial contract that he likely would've never even dreamed of had he not gotten to cut it, and even got the mainstream media to notice the guy, something that hasn't happened due to the actions of a wrestler in awhile. Jericho on the other hand... well I'm not sure what it accomplished. Yes, it was impressive that the guy managed to turn the crowd on him without saying a word and it was definitely entertaining stuff, but I guarantee it will not be even close to as memorable as Punk's promo down the line. Let's hold on a second. Worked shoots had been around for a while. And I dare say that Heyman's shoot on Vince during The Alliance was even more vile and risky than this Punk thing. And Punk had a contract before the promo. Let's not get crazy.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 3, 2012 15:08:58 GMT -5
Ladies and gents, I don't think there is any doubt what Jericho was doing. That was not a sincere face debut. I think he's doing something that is pure performance art whereas I think Punk just aired smark grievances on a national scale. Punk's problem is with the Company, in short. Jericho's at war with the audience and what the audience laps up every week. And THAT is the big difference and why Jericho is so much more important. Jericho is pointing out the real culprit. Punk is pandering to smarks and telling the fans that it isn't their fault, but rather Vince McMahon, his son-in-law, and Johnny Ace that are the problem. Jericho is saying, "Look at yourself. Look at how easily you are manipulated." Am I the only one that sees that? Of course, the only way to not "be manipulated" would be to sit on your hands and not react to anything.
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MrBRulzOK
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Jan 3, 2012 15:11:16 GMT -5
Not even close. Punk's promo had people raving about how great it was, some even proclaiming it was a promo that would make him for the rest of his career, alot of these being people in the wrestling business itself. It resulted in him getting the biggest push that's he ever gotten, landed him a substantial contract that he likely would've never even dreamed of had he not gotten to cut it, and even got the mainstream media to notice the guy, something that hasn't happened due to the actions of a wrestler in awhile. Jericho on the other hand... well I'm not sure what it accomplished. Yes, it was impressive that the guy managed to turn the crowd on him without saying a word and it was definitely entertaining stuff, but I guarantee it will not be even close to as memorable as Punk's promo down the line. Let's hold on a second. Worked shoots had been around for a while. And I dare say that Heyman's shoot on Vince during The Alliance was even more vile and risky than this Punk thing. And Punk had a contract before the promo. Let's not get crazy. True, but the guy certainly didn't have his own bus before then. And the Punk promo wasn't just a bunch of shoot references. Nearly everything he mentioned planted seeds for a potential angle down the line. From "Paul Heyman Guy" to mentioning Triple H and Stephanie. Not to mention it was so great that it inadvertently turned the guy babyface.
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Jan 3, 2012 15:16:43 GMT -5
Ladies and gents, I don't think there is any doubt what Jericho was doing. That was not a sincere face debut. I think he's doing something that is pure performance art whereas I think Punk just aired smark grievances on a national scale. Punk's problem is with the Company, in short. Jericho's at war with the audience and what the audience laps up every week. And THAT is the big difference and why Jericho is so much more important. Jericho is pointing out the real culprit. Punk is pandering to smarks and telling the fans that it isn't their fault, but rather Vince McMahon, his son-in-law, and Johnny Ace that are the problem. Jericho is saying, "Look at yourself. Look at how easily you are manipulated." Am I the only one that sees that? Of course, the only way to not "be manipulated" would be to sit on your hands and not react to anything. But you don't see what I'm saying. Punk is saying that Vince/HHH is the problem. Jericho is demonstrating that the fans are the problem That is the Civil War dividing line.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 3, 2012 15:41:41 GMT -5
Of course, the only way to not "be manipulated" would be to sit on your hands and not react to anything. But you don't see what I'm saying. Punk is saying that Vince/HHH is the problem. Jericho is demonstrating that the fans are the problem That is the Civil War dividing line. That falls apart because he's had no plan (even going back to SRS) to ever say what the fans are SUPPOSED to like. Sure, the "dumb" "casuals" "fall for" "pandering" (Cena, Rey, Face Punk) to get them to cheer. (excuse all the quote marks, please) But the "intellectual" "smarks" "fall for" "shameless douchebaggery" (Heel Punk, Edge, SRS Jericho) to get THEM to cheer. Unless you never cheer for ANYONE, you're still being manipulated, which blows the whole thing apart. While yes, the fans are the problem, it's not in the way Jericho posits. It's in the way Heel Truth posited. "Don't boo me! Y'all should be booing yourselves!"
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Jan 3, 2012 15:51:55 GMT -5
Punk's promo was brilliant and something you didn't see coming. It gave a lot of fans something new and groundbreaking to look foward to.
So far Jericho returned after an extended hiatus and weeks of video vignettes again and has yet to even speak
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Jan 3, 2012 15:54:20 GMT -5
But you don't see what I'm saying. Punk is saying that Vince/HHH is the problem. Jericho is demonstrating that the fans are the problem That is the Civil War dividing line. That falls apart because he's had no plan (even going back to SRS) to ever say what the fans are SUPPOSED to like. Sure, the "dumb" "casuals" "fall for" "pandering" (Cena, Rey, Face Punk) to get them to cheer. (excuse all the quote marks, please) But the "intellectual" "smarks" "fall for" "shameless douchebaggery" (Heel Punk, Edge, SRS Jericho) to get THEM to cheer. Unless you never cheer for ANYONE, you're still being manipulated, which blows the whole thing apart. While yes, the fans are the problem, it's not in the way Jericho posits. It's in the way Heel Truth posited. "Don't boo me! Y'all should be booing yourselves!" Jericho is taking on the smarks too which is tough for us to take, but we suck too.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 3, 2012 15:56:33 GMT -5
I think saying the Jericho return is more influential than Punk's worked shoot less than 24 hours after said return is blowing things massively out of proportion and way, WAY too premature a statement.
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Jan 3, 2012 16:00:58 GMT -5
I think saying the Jericho return is more influential than Punk's worked shoot less than 24 hours after said return is blowing things massively out of proportion and way, WAY too premature a statement. Punk's promo turned out to not be that impactful though right?
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Post by Funkasaurus on Jan 3, 2012 16:06:33 GMT -5
I'd say Jericho's return. We had never seen something like that before, he keeps reinventing the concept of a heel in wrestling. But to understand its true impact we'll have to see how well-thought it was, where it leads and what will be the final outcome.
CM Punk's promo was astonishing, but we had seen shoots before, and this one didn't lead to anything in particular.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 3, 2012 16:06:46 GMT -5
I don't know how you can make the case that it isn't. Punk wouldn't be in the spot he is right now without that promo.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 3, 2012 16:12:01 GMT -5
It's impossible to judge just how influential Jericho's return is going to be without looking at the bigger picture. It could end up being more influential. Who knows? But can anyone really say that less than 24 hours after it? No. We'll know the answer in a couple of months or so. But anyone who says now, that it already has a bigger impact than Punk's promo is majorly jumping the gun in almost a comedic way.
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