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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2012 16:14:16 GMT -5
Jericho's return was more innovative, but Punk's promo was more important.
Punk's promo wasn't exactly anything new (worked shoots have been done before), but it got some mainstream attention and, directly or indirectly, depending on how you look at it, led to WWE going in a new direction that takes advantage of what social media has to offer.
This embracing of social media was probably the biggest leap forward for WWE since the mid -'90s.
As far as Jericho's return goes, it was nice to see a different approach to heel tactics, but that's all it was - just a different kind of heel heat on a wrestling show. Sure, it was something I don't recall seeing before, but it wasn't as meta as people seem to be making it out to be, IMO. He just came out and worked the crowd up until they realized, "i get it, he's just being a sarcastic d-bag" and started to boo.
I don't see what Jericho did changing the way the company books or operates.
Punk's promo gets the vote because, even though it didn't break new ground, it led to something much bigger than I can imagine yet another Jericho return leading to.
So for me, it's Punk's promo by a long shot.
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Jan 3, 2012 16:21:31 GMT -5
I don't know how you can make the case that it isn't. Punk wouldn't be in the spot he is right now without that promo. Where is Punk exactly but not pandering just like Jericho (but not ironically).
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Post by jadison on Jan 3, 2012 16:21:43 GMT -5
Risky things like Jericho's stunt last night are basically able to happen BECAUSE of Punk's promo, so it's the Punker on this one in terms of importance. Yeah I feel like Punk's shoot was pretty much the announcement that WWE has indeed become self-aware What has followed has been a very different approach in a lot of areas, from WWE.com to Johnny Ace to Jericho's return. All of these things kind of a deconstruction of a familiar concept to wrestling fans, and its making things interesting. It really is one of those "new era" things we like to talk about. Though in the case of Punk, I'm starting to get the feeling he's going to get left behind in the wake of the change that he sparked. He hasn't felt that relevant lately, and even worse he feels like he's trying to get that relevance back (I'm gonna beat you like a BITCH) and its not working. I'm a fan of him but I think his run as a top babyface may not last through 2012. I really hope he can get back on track with a great program.
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Jan 3, 2012 16:31:13 GMT -5
Risky things like Jericho's stunt last night are basically able to happen BECAUSE of Punk's promo, so it's the Punker on this one in terms of importance. Yeah I feel like Punk's shoot was pretty much the announcement that WWE has indeed become self-aware What has followed has been a very different approach in a lot of areas, from WWE.com to Johnny Ace to Jericho's return. All of these things kind of a deconstruction of a familiar concept to wrestling fans, and its making things interesting. It really is one of those "new era" things we like to talk about. Though in the case of Punk, I'm starting to get the feeling he's going to get left behind in the wake of the change that he sparked. He hasn't felt that relevant lately, and even worse he feels like he's trying to get that relevance back (I'm gonna beat you like a BITCH) and its not working. I'm a fan of him but I think his run as a top babyface may not last through 2012. I really hope he can get back on track with a great program. The WWE was self aware in the Attitude Era. This worked shoot thing was not that innovative.
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Post by Codebreaker on Jan 3, 2012 16:38:22 GMT -5
It's impossible to judge just how influential Jericho's return is going to be without looking at the bigger picture. It could end up being more influential. Who knows? But can anyone really say that less than 24 hours after it? No. We'll know the answer in a couple of months or so. But anyone who says now, that it already has a bigger impact than Punk's promo is majorly jumping the gun in almost a comedic way. Instead of comparing the entirety of the Punk storyline though, we can just compare the shoot itself and the buzz it got afterwards. Forget about MITB and what followed, just the shoot as an individual piece. What were we all thinking when Raw went off the air in that case? And this is why I wish that Jericho's return was the LAST thing to happen on the show. Even though it's the thing that everybody's talking about from Raw, how much more epic would it have been if Jericho smiling awkwardly and leaving to boos was the last thing we saw? In my opinion, that would have given it even more impact. Punk's shoot wouldn't have worked as well if it was in the middle of the program. It also allows no time for answers or explanations; everyone was waiting for some kind of further resolution to Jericho's actions on the show, but if he did it at the end of the show, we're just left with his actions alone. Either way, Punk's promo was shocking in that we didn't see it coming. Jericho's debut was shocking in that we knew he was coming, and we expected a certain type of behaviour, and we were given something completely different.
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Viva
Dennis Stamp
THAT'S MY PURSE! *kick to the groin*
You can dance if you want to.
Posts: 4,099
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Post by Viva on Jan 3, 2012 16:40:00 GMT -5
Punk did what he did once. And it was shocking, new, and felt revolutionary. Jericho has returned like 4 times in the last 10 years, and every time it's built up exactly the same. He just trolled the crowd last night, and while I loved it, I was legitimately hopeful for the state of pro wrestling after CM Punk did what he did. I was just happy to see Jericho being Jericho after he did what he did last night.
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Post by onestepplan on Jan 3, 2012 16:45:23 GMT -5
I signed up for this board shortly after Jericho's last run, but is this seriously what people are like about Jericho around here? He stalled and refused to give the fans what they want, turning himself heel. JBL wrote a few paragraphs about that being his whole approach to heeling not too long back. Yes, it was clever and cute but it wasn't really innovative and it didn't 'hold a mirror up to the fans faces' and it sure as hell didn't 'redefine being a heel'.
Punk's promo was far more important because it brought a little edge back to a fanbase that has been begging for it. It got people talking and watching that don't normally talk about or watch wrestling. No one does that anymore, except maybe The Rock. I'm not even a big CM Punk fan and even I know that promo was a huge deal.
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Post by Codebreaker on Jan 3, 2012 16:54:00 GMT -5
I signed up for this board shortly after Jericho's last run, but is this seriously what people are like about Jericho around here? He stalled and refused to give the fans what they want, turning himself heel. JBL wrote a few paragraphs about that being his whole approach to heeling not too long back. Yes, it was clever and cute but it wasn't really innovative and it didn't 'hold a mirror up to the fans faces' and it sure as hell didn't 'redefine being a heel'. Punk's promo was far more important because it brought a little edge back to a fanbase that has been begging for it. It got people talking and watching that don't normally talk about or watch wrestling. No one does that anymore, except maybe The Rock. I'm not even a big CM Punk fan and even I know that promo was a huge deal. You may dismiss my opinion based on my username alone, but I think you're over-simplifying what Jericho did. Put it this way. How many other wrestlers have you seen do exactly what Jericho did? And how many people have you seen cut a shoot promo?
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Jan 3, 2012 17:12:25 GMT -5
I signed up for this board shortly after Jericho's last run, but is this seriously what people are like about Jericho around here? He stalled and refused to give the fans what they want, turning himself heel. JBL wrote a few paragraphs about that being his whole approach to heeling not too long back. Yes, it was clever and cute but it wasn't really innovative and it didn't 'hold a mirror up to the fans faces' and it sure as hell didn't 'redefine being a heel'. Punk's promo was far more important because it brought a little edge back to a fanbase that has been begging for it. It got people talking and watching that don't normally talk about or watch wrestling. No one does that anymore, except maybe The Rock. I'm not even a big CM Punk fan and even I know that promo was a huge deal. You may dismiss my opinion based on my username alone, but I think you're over-simplifying what Jericho did. Put it this way. How many other wrestlers have you seen do exactly what Jericho did? And how many people have you seen cut a shoot promo? This is true and the fact is that Jericho is creating the new heel. Even if I grant that Punk created the new smark hero, Jericho may be cracking the code of how to get someone to play a heel and actually still get heel heat (Punk couldn't do it). And the issue still stands. Punk basically blames the bad state of the produce on Vince. So in one since he's just Austin fighting "the man." Jericho is coming at the audience. And he isn't playing to the smarks like Rock or Punk. He is going at the whole audience. All the smarks that cheered his return got busted just like everyone else. Meanwhile Punk makes inside jokes exactly for the smarks. As you said, Punk didn't do one innovative thing. And at the end of the day innovation is what creates long lasting impact. Jericho is changing the game.
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Post by austinariesfan88 on Jan 3, 2012 17:14:17 GMT -5
Punk's promo it was shocking and unexpected and had people who either haven't watched wrestling in years or don't watch it all suddenly interested in the product.
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Jan 3, 2012 17:15:46 GMT -5
Sorry for rambling, but Jericho is really demonstrating that all the people that booed Cena and think HHH is the bane of the WWE existence are really no less marks than those they despise for cheering Cena.
Case in point. A viral video is played. Hype for who will show up starts. Smarks mark. The lights go out. The music hits. Smarks mark. Jericho then sandbags them.
I'm putting myself in the smark category too, mind you. In fact, everyone is a mark actually. You wouldn't be watching if you weren't. But CM Punk marks or just internet marks as a whole are not as comfortable being exposed for their markiness and Jericho is doing that.
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Post by flatsdomino on Jan 3, 2012 17:23:12 GMT -5
I think saying the Jericho return is more influential than Punk's worked shoot less than 24 hours after said return is blowing things massively out of proportion and way, WAY too premature a statement. Punk's promo turned out to not be that impactful though right? No, Punk's promo began a definite shift in the product. WWE is much more willing to experiment and be self-aware now. Punk's being a top guy, "Mr. Excitement" John Laurinitis, Zack Ryder and Daniel Bryan leaving TLC as champs, Cody Rhodes talking about how worthless the IC title had become and Mark Henry basically doing the same for his whole CAREER, Beth and Nattie calling out the Divas division, John Morrison's release being acknowledged (as well as the .Com in GENERAL), the return of a masked Kane, the tease of a Cena heel turn (along with EMBRACING the boos for Cena) and Jericho's decidedly avant-garde trolling return are all effects of it. It's a fourth-wall breaking "reality era" now, one that is for better or for worse exemplified by their twitter obsession. And whether it was his doing or it was something in the works for a while, Punk's promo kicked it off.
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Jan 3, 2012 17:33:15 GMT -5
Punk's promo turned out to not be that impactful though right? No, Punk's promo began a definite shift in the product. WWE is much more willing to experiment and be self-aware now. Punk's being a top guy, "Mr. Excitement" John Laurinitis, Zack Ryder and Daniel Bryan leaving TLC as champs, Cody Rhodes talking about how worthless the IC title had become and Mark Henry basically doing the same for his whole CAREER, Beth and Nattie calling out the Divas division, John Morrison's release being acknowledged (as well as the .Com in GENERAL), the return of a masked Kane, the tease of a Cena heel turn (along with EMBRACING the boos for Cena) and Jericho's decidedly avant-garde trolling return are all effects of it. It's a fourth-wall breaking "reality era" now, one that is for better or for worse exemplified by their twitter obsession. And whether it was his doing or it was something in the works for a while, Punk's promo kicked it off. Meh. You can't really tie all of that to Punk's promo. Again, worked shoots had been happening for a while. Even when Punk's promo happened many reminded the masses that Styles and Heyman had done something similar. ECW was built off of it. And if you want to say Punk at least busted us out of the PG era, you may not want to admit it, but DX (especially HHH) had been breaking the fourth wall throughout the PG era. Punk had a great storyline angle (I'm quitting) with the great "Will he really leave" suspense. Plus he aired smark grievances that resonated with half the audience. But none of the above really changed anything. Just as the Grantland articles mentioned, Punk really just changed things for Punk. Jericho is changing how we think of a heel. And he didn't even say a word!
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Viva
Dennis Stamp
THAT'S MY PURSE! *kick to the groin*
You can dance if you want to.
Posts: 4,099
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Post by Viva on Jan 3, 2012 19:46:27 GMT -5
No, Punk's promo began a definite shift in the product. WWE is much more willing to experiment and be self-aware now. Punk's being a top guy, "Mr. Excitement" John Laurinitis, Zack Ryder and Daniel Bryan leaving TLC as champs, Cody Rhodes talking about how worthless the IC title had become and Mark Henry basically doing the same for his whole CAREER, Beth and Nattie calling out the Divas division, John Morrison's release being acknowledged (as well as the .Com in GENERAL), the return of a masked Kane, the tease of a Cena heel turn (along with EMBRACING the boos for Cena) and Jericho's decidedly avant-garde trolling return are all effects of it. It's a fourth-wall breaking "reality era" now, one that is for better or for worse exemplified by their twitter obsession. And whether it was his doing or it was something in the works for a while, Punk's promo kicked it off. Meh. You can't really tie all of that to Punk's promo. Again, worked shoots had been happening for a while. Even when Punk's promo happened many reminded the masses that Styles and Heyman had done something similar. ECW was built off of it. And if you want to say Punk at least busted us out of the PG era, you may not want to admit it, but DX (especially HHH) had been breaking the fourth wall throughout the PG era. Punk had a great storyline angle (I'm quitting) with the great "Will he really leave" suspense. Plus he aired smark grievances that resonated with half the audience. But none of the above really changed anything. Just as the Grantland articles mentioned, Punk really just changed things for Punk. Jericho is changing how we think of a heel. And he didn't even say a word! No, not meh. And yes, you can tie all of that to Punks promo. Sure, worked shoots have happened before in the past. But for you a) use that as your only argument, and b) use it to discredit the impact of the summer of punk, its kind of silly, dude. Things have changed and continue to change, and it all started with Punk and what he did this summer. I don't see how that's even really debatable. And with that said, no, Jericho didn't change the way I think of heels. Not to blatantly disagree with you for disagreeing's sake, but he really didn't. What he did last night was awesome. But it wasn't (yet) game changing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2012 20:12:07 GMT -5
Ladies and gents, I don't think there is any doubt what Jericho was doing. That was not a sincere face debut. I think he's doing something that is pure performance art whereas I think Punk just aired smark grievances on a national scale. Punk's problem is with the Company, in short. Jericho's at war with the audience and what the audience laps up every week. And THAT is the big difference and why Jericho is so much more important. Jericho is pointing out the real culprit. Punk is pandering to smarks and telling the fans that it isn't their fault, but rather Vince McMahon, his son-in-law, and Johnny Ace that are the problem. Jericho is saying, "Look at yourself. Look at how easily you are manipulated." Am I the only one that sees that? I agree and disagree. I think what Jericho did last night was incredible and as you say, qualifies as performance art. It's an instance where professional wrestling just doesn't get enough credit for the live performance brilliance it can show in instances like this. CM Punk has a cool factor but I don't think any active wrestler can tell a story like Jericho today. That being said, I think Punk's promo is just historically more important than Jericho's nonpromo. I'm hopeful that Jericho's building towards an angle that rivals his feud with HBK a few years back, but in the big picture Punk's promo actually shifted the entire direction of the company to a degree. Jericho seems to have influence on everyone around him since a lot of people seemed to take cues from his overtly serious character and this new character seems to be in defiance of that, and this latest run in the WWE could likely get some guys borrowing from that schtick as well. But if not for that CM Punk promo we could be living in a world where John Cena is still champion and we're actually committed to Rock vs. Cena needlessly being a title match, Zack Ryder remaining off the grid, no online/media presence(for better or for worse CM Punk made WWE aware of the internet).
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Post by Cyno on Jan 3, 2012 20:16:22 GMT -5
Honestly outside of not saying a single word, I fail to see how what Jericho did was all that groundbreaking or innovative by itself. A known heel came back, teased a face turn, and trolled the audience. It's been done before.
Yes worked shoots have been done before. Yes, they're not innovative. That also has absolutely no bearing on how influential that worked shoot has been on Punk's career (who before that was sort of languishing around in upper-midcard hell leading failed stables and generally not doing much) and WWE in general since. The fact that worked shoots have been done before in the past is completely irrelevant.
The things you've been saying about Jericho's promo being this cutting edge avant-garde moment in heeling are things I think you want to see rather than how things actually are. Only time will tell if this is going to have as much as, or more of, an impact as Punk's promo. To declare that less than 24 hours without seeing what WWE programming does to build upon it, that it is already bigger than Punk's promo is completely silly. And I think it does a disservice to both segments, honestly.
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Post by El Hijo del Havoc on Jan 3, 2012 20:33:26 GMT -5
Wait, Y2J's debut? Like his 1999 WWE debut? Cause if it is, I'd pick Y2J. However, if your talking about last nights return, Punk's promo by far
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Jan 3, 2012 21:18:40 GMT -5
I just don't understand how people don't see the innovation in Jericho counter to Punk. No one has done what Jericho just did and what Jericho is doing is changing how a heel works.
This is reactive rather than active. I think Jericho and the 'E see how difficult it is in the modern era to maintain the same character archetypes of the past.
Lately they ran into the buzzsaw of the postmodern fan dilemma. If the 'E makes someone face the fans recoil and boo them. If they make someone an interesting heel they get cheered.
In today's era Hogan would be a Cena figure and Ric Flair would be like CM Punk. That is just where we are.
Punk has been the reaction to the 'E trying to create a new face. Their answer is to pander to the smark and figure the kids will come along.
But it is still hard to create a heel the fans will actually universally (for the most part) hate. Vickie is one of the few. Jericho attacking the fans and their intelligence (especially the smarks). Jericho's act was brilliant and powerful in that regard.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Jan 3, 2012 21:32:40 GMT -5
Punk's promo was way better. I had goosebumps during the whole thing. Jericho's return flat out sucked. Now that isn't to say that next week Jericho isn't going to do something that kicks the pure dog s*** out of Punk's shoot promo, but what he did on Monday night doesn't hold a candle to what Punk did before MITB.
EDIT: I know that sounds harsh. I don't want people to think I don't like Jericho or anything. I freaking love Jericho. But that moment, while innovative, different, and potentially genius...as a single segment it was pure dog shit IMO. Am I being worked? Probably...but that doesn't mean that the segment itself was good, fun, or entertaining. If it's not complimented with an awesome follow-up, it could be the worst segment in the history of RAW.
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Post by onestepplan on Jan 3, 2012 21:33:42 GMT -5
I just don't understand how people don't see the innovation in Jericho counter to Punk. No one has done what Jericho just did and what Jericho is doing is changing how a heel works. This is reactive rather than active. I think Jericho and the 'E see how difficult it is in the modern era to maintain the same character archetypes of the past. Lately they ran into the buzzsaw of the postmodern fan dilemma. If the 'E makes someone face the fans recoil and boo them. If they make someone an interesting heel they get cheered. In today's era Hogan would be a Cena figure and Ric Flair would be like CM Punk. That is just where we are. Punk has been the reaction to the 'E trying to create a new face. Their answer is to pander to the smark and figure the kids will come along. But it is still hard to create a heel the fans will actually universally (for the most part) hate. Vickie is one of the few. Jericho attacking the fans and their intelligence (especially the smarks). Jericho's act was brilliant and powerful in that regard. No, Michael Cole is a modern heel who works smarks and marks alike. Jericho took a face moment and squeezed heel heat from it by denying the fans. Thematically, it's not much different than Rock telling the fans to stop singing along with his catchphrases. Like I said, it's clever and all but it's not particularly innovative. JBL and even Randy Orton approached heeling in a similarly fan-deflating way.
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