saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Dec 18, 2012 0:09:40 GMT -5
too young to remember territories but from reading books and watching clips, you had to work to get over in other areas and it allowed different people to be on top. Somebody who was a draw in Portland may not be in Memphis while somebody who made money in Calgary may not in Florida. I grew up in the territories era and got hooked during that time, and as a consumer of the product, the great things about territories is they pretty much never got stale. You might have a core group of faces and heels that stayed in a territory for a long time, but others would show up or leave often enough that you had new feuds -- the heels might bring in Abdullah the Butcher for a month or so to run roughshod over the faces, or perhaps a Stan Hansen would come in to join forces with Dusty after the heels seemed to really have the upper hand. And just when you think the babyfaces had triumphed ... maybe the Freebirds pop into the territory and terrorize the good guys. Ect., etc. Between where we lived and the TV available plus the fact that we usually spent a good deal of the summer at the beach some hours away, I had access to four territories on a regular basis. I saw Sting/Warrior a few times on TV when they were teaming together in their earliest days -- I remember it clearly because of the facepaint, which I had never seen. I agree with the idea that it helped wrestlers develop and mostly to learn to listen to the crowd and find out what it took to get over in any given town on any given night. The indies today, although I certainly like some promotions and some guys, seem to develop a lot of sameness -- MMA-light vanilla midgets and spot monkeys mostly. And what it takes to get over there has little relationship to what it takes to move up to WWE and play in the big leagues.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Dec 18, 2012 1:44:36 GMT -5
While there are a lot of bland wrestlers in the indies, a lot of them probably could be given good gimmicks and angles by a savvy booker. There are a lot of really good wrestlers out there, I think if they were presented differently they would be more memorable and some of them would seem just as good as the old school guys.
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Squirrel Master
Hank Scorpio
"Then the Squirrel Master came out of left field and told me I'm his bitch!"
Posts: 6,643
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Post by Squirrel Master on Dec 21, 2012 1:53:23 GMT -5
I used to enjoy the WWF televised squashes that began with a sorry looking Herb (or two) standing inside the ring, giving the camera a little wave. They were almost always puny out-of-shape dudes with the "deer in the headlights" look on their face. They always lost. So whenever you had a pair of decent wrestlers or teams squaring off against each other on TV, it seemed important.
I also liked the promos on both NWA and WWF syndicated television, simple straight forward minutes of superstars speaking on how they will dismantle their opponents. NWA had the guys say their piece, then step off camera as the next guys' turn came up. WWF had guys yapping on and on in front of their logo, which was a nice touch. Whereas today we see wrestler A live in the ring, arguing with wrestler B's pre-recorded comments on the Titantron. ...so bogus.
I used to love how the WWF would have house show matches pop up in their syndicated shows, great matches like Missing Link vs. Paul Orndorff, and classic moments such as Randy Savage cheating Tito Santana to win his first IC title at the Boston Gardens.
Bill Watts Presents UWF tv shows were Da Bomb. The opening segment very week: we'd be treated to the final chaotic moments of last weeks show, followed by a live promo that would set the tone for this weeks show. ...and it felt real, like you better attend the house shows or you're missing half the picture.
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Post by The Spelunker! on Dec 21, 2012 2:19:42 GMT -5
The biggest thing to me would be the widespread use of whitemeat babyfaces. Clearcut heroes and villains, and less wrestling, which made each match matter more. There always felt like something was on the line, even on shows like WCW Worldwide/Saturday Night.
Modern wrestling has definitely worked on this a bit though, TNA in particular has crafted clear heels at this point (Daniels and Kaz, Aries, Aces and Eights, Kid Kash and Zema Ion are all clearly no good, rotten scoundrels...), and stuff like the BFG series really helped.
If announcers treated each match like it was a big deal, maybe it would be.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 21, 2012 2:20:51 GMT -5
A "sporting" feel
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 5:55:27 GMT -5
Kayfabe made things so much simpler to believe. There was no way you'd think "oh, after the Horsemen tried to end Dusty's career by breaking his leg, they went out and had a beer together". Heels hated the babyfaces and the good guys wanted revenge. Can't get much simpler than that.
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Post by eDemento2099 on Dec 21, 2012 11:58:25 GMT -5
Wrestlers were allowed to adlib promos instead of struggling to memorize and recite contrived, ham-fisted dialog.
Belts meant something because there weren't so many of them.
There was actual competition between promotions. Monopolies are not good for anyone except the monopolizing entity.
Wrestlers didn't have to destroy their bodies at such a quick rate in order to keep up with the insane standards that had been set for believable finishes (Jake Roberts' DDT and Macho Man's elbow drop used to be considered devastating moves that no one could conceivable overcome).
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 14:58:34 GMT -5
Belts meant something because there weren't so many of them. I've heard this reasoning before, and I disagree with it. In Jim Crockett Promotions, when I started watching in the 80s, the following titles existed: NWA World Heavyweight, NWA World Junior Heavyweight, NWA World Television, NWA US, NWA Mid-Atlantic, NWA National, NWA World Tag Team, NWA US Tag Team. There was also an NWA Six-man Tag Team title that I don't recall actually having a belt. In World Class there was: NWA/World Class Texas Heavyweight, World Class World Heavyweight, NWA Texas Brass Knuckles, World Class Television, World Class World Tag Team, NWA/World Class Texas Tag Team, World Class Six-man Tag Team. Most territories stuck with their major regional titles with a midcard belt or two, a tag team title, and maybe a lighter weight class and women's title. But above are two examples of promotions that just couldn't get enough titles to be defended on their shows. The only current, obvious example(to me, anyway)of a promotion having a title too many is WWE having two belts that are supposed to be viewed as world titles. This sort of made sense when the brand split was something that was usually enforced. But with the current arrangement, it sort of makes both of the titles look worthless. I will, however, state that I feel that the WWF's older format of having the World, Intercontinental, and Tag Team titles was the best title picture. All of the belts felt prestigious then. But compared to these two examples, the "big two" of the modern era aren't really doing a title overkill.
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Post by sweatpants on Dec 21, 2012 17:59:17 GMT -5
The marks were on the other side of the guardrail, brother.
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Post by eDemento2099 on Dec 22, 2012 2:00:22 GMT -5
Belts meant something because there weren't so many of them. I've heard this reasoning before, and I disagree with it. In Jim Crockett Promotions, when I started watching in the 80s, the following titles existed: NWA World Heavyweight, NWA World Junior Heavyweight, NWA World Television, NWA US, NWA Mid-Atlantic, NWA National ... I will, however, state that I feel that the WWF's older format of having the World, Intercontinental, and Tag Team titles was the best title picture. All of the belts felt prestigious then. But compared to these two examples, the "big two" of the modern era aren't really doing a title overkill. Fair enough. My comment that belts meant more in the past because the number of belts had not been inflated to an insane degree was aimed at the WWF/WWE rather than old school wrestling promotions/federations. You and I seem to agree on that point, although I didn't mind the fact that WCW adopted a cruiserweight title since its many luchadores were never supposed to compete for the world heavyweight championship. Yeah, the WWF had a light heavyweight (cruiserweight) belt too, but let's face it: The WWF/WWE doesn't know dick about promoting and giving sincere pushes to cruiserweight talent (unless they roid up, water down their high-flying style, and step outside of their weight class, as Rey Mysterio did).
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Post by notasmark on Dec 22, 2012 2:03:34 GMT -5
The problem is the fans. They want a TV Show with 5 star matches, 5 star promos, 5 star announcers basically a 5 star product.
1 little thing that they don't like happens they boycott the product. Surprises are no longer surprises and in general wrestlers stop being "that guy on TV" when they leave the ring. Heels sign autographs, babyfaces blow fans off.
Back in the old days fans were happy with a 2 star TV Match with a 2 star announcers with 1 star production.
So what made the old school better? The fact the fans weren't so demanding and wanting the "very best"
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Post by eDemento2099 on Dec 22, 2012 9:05:27 GMT -5
The problem is the fans. They want a TV Show with 5 star matches, 5 star promos, 5 star announcers basically a 5 star product. 1 little thing that they don't like happens they boycott the product. Surprises are no longer surprises and in general wrestlers stop being "that guy on TV" when they leave the ring. Heels sign autographs, babyfaces blow fans off. Back in the old days fans were happy with a 2 star TV Match with a 2 star announcers with 1 star production. So what made the old school better? The fact the fans weren't so demanding and wanting the "very best" You make some good points. A friend of mine who used to really be into wrestling during the mid- to late-90s still buys DVDs focusing on that era (i.e. The Bret Hart DVD anthology), but he has zero interest in watching the Chikara and CZW DVDs I own because he became accustomed to very high production values and fancy lighting. If ECW had not upped its production values to get on TNN, he probably would never have bothered getting into ECW, either.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Dec 22, 2012 9:37:36 GMT -5
The problem is the fans. They want a TV Show with 5 star matches, 5 star promos, 5 star announcers basically a 5 star product. 1 little thing that they don't like happens they boycott the product. Surprises are no longer surprises and in general wrestlers stop being "that guy on TV" when they leave the ring. Heels sign autographs, babyfaces blow fans off. Back in the old days fans were happy with a 2 star TV Match with a 2 star announcers with 1 star production. So what made the old school better? The fact the fans weren't so demanding and wanting the "very best" You make some good points. A friend of mine who used to really be into wrestling during the mid- to late-90s still buys DVDs focusing on that era (i.e. The Bret Hart DVD anthology), but he has zero interest in watching the Chikara and CZW DVDs I own because he became accustomed to very high production values and fancy lighting. If ECW had not upped its production values to get on TNN, he probably would never have bothered getting into ECW, either. production values are easy. Something like 75 to 80% of the shows should have the same values anyway. it's the constant desire for new things that drives me nuts. I try a food and enjoy it I don't ask for something similar but new the next meal
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Post by Big Daddy Bad Booking on Dec 22, 2012 9:58:45 GMT -5
Time.
I'm not so much talking that 'x' time is better than 'y' time, but it's how bookers use the time is what counts.
Back in the good ol' days, you'd see wrestlers have time to develop. Develop a style, a character, a motif. Some of these guys took years to develop, but when they did, they became great successes. That is how someone from every promotion should be built up: with time, patience, DEVELOPMENT, and encouragement.
Now it feels like you need everything to click off the bat. With corporate conglomerates needing every cent returned on their investment, it sucks to see men of potential get cut so quick because they're not "gate" material right away. There's no development, its all right here right now, and its terrible.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 22, 2012 10:20:48 GMT -5
Kayfabe made things so much simpler to believe. There was no way you'd think "oh, after the Horsemen tried to end Dusty's career by breaking his leg, they went out and had a beer together". Heels hated the babyfaces and the good guys wanted revenge. Can't get much simpler than that. You're correct, sir.
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Post by Drillbit Taylor on Dec 22, 2012 11:29:09 GMT -5
Jobber matches. Not only did it give the Indy guy some national attention but it gave guys time to hone thier gimmicks and not to burn out match ups against the Roster. If they were to wait till PPVs or the random Raw for the big Match ups they would seem more special.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 22, 2012 15:28:36 GMT -5
The fourth wall was hidden. You didn't have to sit bewildered at why the announcers and wrestlers would complain about "bad segments" and "promos"
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 22, 2012 15:45:23 GMT -5
People didn't have to be a contender for the World Title to be a star.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,656
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Post by thecrusherwi on Dec 22, 2012 18:12:28 GMT -5
Relistic Production - Everything was covered in a "sporty" way, no matter how ridiculous. The announcers sold the storylines. Papa Shango's voodoo might have been stupid, but the announcers sold it like this is something that can happen within the confines of this universe we've created.
Less TV/Squash Matches - the Monday Night Raws ruined booking for big shows in a lot of ways. A huge part of the novelty of pay per view matches was just see these two characters occupy the same space. Your big Wrestlemania matches in the first 10-12 years were built with the opposing wrestlers rarely even sharing the same screen. When you finally saw them in the ring ready to square of, it was almost surreal. I liken it to the Presidential Debates. You see so many speeches and clips of each candidate in different towns apart from each other that when you actually see them walk on the stage and shake hands, it almost blows your mind that these two actually do exist in the same universe and are going be debating face to face. I miss that feeling in wrestling.
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ERON
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,779
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Post by ERON on Dec 24, 2012 0:10:59 GMT -5
Announcers who actually called the match and knew the names of the holds and the backgrounds of the wrestlers.
Hyping every match on the PPV card, so the fans actually cared about British Bulldog vs. the Warlord or Tito Santana vs. the Mountie.
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