my two cents on the saftey of safe style

[angryfan]

I know we've had safe style discussions but Kennedy's injury made me think, has it decreased or increased major injuries?

Take the few years prior to its implimentation, and what moves were "taken out".
Since Safe Style took out piledrivers (except Taker/Kane) and other moves taht require neck bumps, what haps happened?

Prior to it, the major injuries that "ushered it in" were Angle, Benoit, Rhyno, Edge, Austin, and Droz. OK, Droz was injured on HEAT with a botched powerbomb by D'Lo, Austin injured with a botched inverted piledriver by Owen. Thing is, botches happen, poor Stevie Richards has been injured TWICE by green-ass rookies who botched or stiffed him (Masters and Heidy-Botch). Wait, maybe that explains something, that's why we haven't seen him, Stevie Richards is now banned under safe style.
Kennedy's injury got me thinking. OK, since safe style was implemented, just to name a few, there've been multiple Edge injuries requiring time out, Batista and now Kennedy's lat tears, Orton's shoulder injuries, RVD's leg, and Richards injuries.
So the score card now reads:
Prior: 6 major injuries prior to safe style, requiring substantial time off.
Since: six individuals, three of them multiple times, requiring substantial time off.

Seems to me safe style's done more harm then good. Yes, it's cut down on neck injuries, assuming the banned moves are "neck bumps", but the major injuries are all seeminly in the same area (with Edge's pec tear an obvious exception).

I think safe style had good intetions, but, as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Face it, the problem was never "those moves are too dangerous". Let's look at the six pre-ban injuries I mentioned.

Angle - hell yes he needed neck surgery, the man's HAD his neck problems since prior to the Olympics.

Benoit - 18 years of bumps take their toll.

Austin - botched move, an invertied piledriver.

Droz - injured on HEAT when the show was still a "you guys are pissed, here's the finish, stiff the hell out of eachother" show. Still, it was a botched sit-out powerbomb, a move that has never been effected by safe-style bans.

Rhyno - truthfully, not sure what caused his injury, I'm assuming wear and tear.

Edge - Same as Rhyno, off hand, not sure what caused it.

OK, assume the two I'm not sure of WERE caused by now banned moves under safe style. That's three guys, with Austin, who's injuries could've been prevented by safe style. Agle eventually would've needed the neck surgery, Benoit too more than likely, and the Droz injury, well, that wouldn't have been prevented because the move still isn't banned.
Just me ranting and thinking out loud, thanks for reading.

[angryfan]

Thanks to Karisma, I've got more.

Test - neck injury (after safe style) plus foot
Rico - neck
and quad injuries by Vinnie, Trips, and Nash (assuming it counts, since he had the tear away version installed).
Will the E ban power struts under safe style?

[The Lach is very tired]

What you are saying makes sense. BUt I can see why the policy is in place. The WWE wants to protect the workers soi they can have long careers in the business.

Whether the current policy is the best way to go about it will be debated as long as the IWC exists.

[Mr. Zombie]

I would say its cut injuries by a lot and made huge spots a bit more special. I don't mind "safe style" as I think you have to know a bit more about what you're doing and have a better understanding of ring psychology to excel in it. The big difference with injuries now is that they seem to be more from wear and tear or general mishappenings (Dave's lats just happened to tear, nothing you can do about it). They're not so much from wrestlers doing dangerous moves on each other.

[sirendemented]

Ehh, it think its more of the travel than the style. See in the X division we have guys doing insane moves. But they arent hurt or barely ever get hurt. They only do a few shows out of the month, whereas WWE guys do the WHOLE month of shows. I think it wears the body down and makes it easy to get injuried. Dont have time to heal, if you go to rest, you might get fired (Test, Davey Boy Smith, Steve Austin)

[angryfan]

You made a great point with "you have to know what you're doing". The cuts have been veterans, with more green guys who admittedly "need more work". The injuries to, for instance, Richads, were caused by two young guys trying to prove something.

My point was, the injuries prior to safe style were wear and tear, save Austin and Droz. Funny side note, Austin is injured with a piledriver, it's banned, the very next person to use a piledriver in a match? Austin. Just found that funny.

[jevman]

Could the IWC as a whole make up its mind, cause its really confusing the hell out of my why i just read an 8 page thread on how Kurt Angle is lying to us and needs to quit the business cause hes obsessive compulsive and is gonna kill himself and how the wrestlers are stupid and dont know what their doing to their bodies, and their all gonna die.... and then go to the next post "safe style is stupid".

Just a friendly request.

[sirendemented]

^^^^^^^^Jesus dude, use periods more often in your rants

[angryfan]

Ladie's and gentleman...e e cummings.

And Siren, I agree that it's more the travel schedule that's causing injuries. If you take the same bump, regardless of what it is, over and over, 4 and 5 days a week, every week, for a year solid, and dont' take even a week off when you get injured, then your body breaks down faster. That's my problem with the whole "safe style" deal, it doesn't address the fact that the men and women working for WWE are working like mad, and won't take time to heal for fear of losing their jobs. Safe style is a nice way for the company to say, "see, guys, we fixed it, now keep going".

[hakushi]

I personally think with Safe Style wrestlers are "overthinking" moves/spots

[BrianZane]

angryfan said:

Prior: 6 major injuries prior to safe style, requiring substantial time off.
Since: six individuals, three of them multiple times, requiring substantial time off.

It seems that you're saying that the "pre-safe style" time period was just a few years long, when in fact it's been for decades. The safe style didn't get started up until 2000, and didn't really go into full effect until what seemed like 2002 or so. Now it does seem shocking that there are as many people who have been seriously injured in the last 3 or 4 years than all the time before the style was implemented, but then think about how the wrestlers' schedules are even more demanding than they were in the Attitude Era.

Angle - hell yes he needed neck surgery, the man's HAD his neck problems since prior to the Olympics.

Benoit - 18 years of bumps take their toll.

Austin - botched move, an invertied piledriver.

Droz - injured on HEAT when the show was still a "you guys are pissed, here's the finish, stiff the hell out of eachother" show. Still, it was a botched sit-out powerbomb, a move that has never been effected by safe-style bans.

Rhyno - truthfully, not sure what caused his injury, I'm assuming wear and tear.

Edge - Same as Rhyno, off hand, not sure what caused it.

Angle- Yes, wear and tear contributed to his ever-erroding neck, and in 2003 it got to the point where surgery was absolutely necessary.

Benoit & Austin- Agreed.

Droz- First off, it was the Smackdown tapings where Droz got injured, not Heat. Second, calling Heat a "you guys are pissed, here's the finish, stiff the hell out of eachother"...what? Third, it was a running sit-out powerbomb, which made the move just a tad more dangerous.

Rhyno- He said in an interview he was fighting Justin Credible in a hardcore match, he took a Gore spot into the turnbuckle and he messed up his neck there.

Edge- Not sure how it happened either, probably just a freak accident.

I don't think the safe style is directly to blame for all these injuries. Steven Richards' injuries were both caused by guys who looked a little sloppy in the ring. Not the safe style's fault.

Test broke his foot because Shane McMahon fell on it, no fault of the safe style.

Batista was injured after the "tag match from hell" a couple of years ago, then before he could return, tore his tricep JOGGING.

Edge's multiple injuries since returning from a neck injury (hand, groin, pec) were probably accidents as well.

Triple H ripped his quad apart with a simple foot plant.

Batista tore his lat by taking a double chokeslam, which is nothing special bump-taking-wise. Kennedy probably tore his lat under the same circumstances just taking a bump.

RVD probably just hurt his leg doing the same crazy crap he always does. He broke his leg before in ECW, and no one was saying that ECW's style was "too dangerous."

With wrestlers taking all the bumps they take with such a demanding schedule, with little time to rest with all the international tours they go on these days, all that muscle they have is going to break at some point; those muscles aren't made of steel. You'd be hard-pressed to find direct links between the safe style and the current wave of injuries.

[sexualvanilla]

Edge- Not sure how it happened either, probably just a freak accident.

RVD probably just hurt his leg doing the same crazy crap he always does. He broke his leg before in ECW, and no one was saying that ECW's style was "too dangerous."

I believe Edge's was based on wear and tear from all those TLC matches (which also explains Christian's bad neck, and Jeff Hardy in general).

RVD broke his ankle in ECW while doing a baseball slide to Rhino, something that could've concievably happened today with the safe style

[angryfan]

My friend, there is no explaination for Jeff Hardy in general.

[jevman]

Logicall Fallacy

Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc

Translation: "After this, therefore because of this"

Example #1: Everyday before the sun rises, the rooster crows. Therefore the roosters crow causes the sun to rise.

Example #2: Since the WWE has instituted a "safe style" rule, 6 wrestlers have been injured. Therefore, safe-style injures wrestlers.

[sirendemented]

Like I said, the schedule has alot to do with it.

Just think, since the start of the X division, how many times have you heard of a wrestler getting seriously injured and having to take a big load of time off? Not that much, if even (One might say Jerry Lynn's shoulder injury, but that was from a botched Super Juvi Driver, thanks for that Juvi ).

Its the fact that their schedules are alot lighter. They might do a month's worth of shows but then only do one show the next month. Whereas WWE is almost a full year of travel. So it makes it easier to get hurt.

Also doesn't help when you have green kids or just guys who are sloppy at times in what they are doing hurting people.
(See: Masters, Chris and Guerrera, Juvintud)

[Loki]

I don't think we can blame safe style for wrestlers' injuries. As "safe" as it may be, wrestling still involves bumps. Even a simple slam requires landing on your back. Taking those bumps every other day has an impact on your health, no matter how "safe" the style is. Every wrestler know he'll pick up an injury sooner or later, it's part of the game.

Safe style will perhaps pay its dividends with the current new generations, "raised" under slightly safer conditions.

You can't seriously take into account recent injuries occurred to people who used to take insane spots (Edge and the TLC group), or to lifetime committed athletes like Angle and Benoit.

Actually, I don't think it's such a bad idea having a toned down style, with current working schedules. Smaller feds can afford to run less shows with more edgy moves, WWE can't.

[amsiraK]

Hey, I'm glad this made it to a thread. I was going to suggest it to ya, angry. There's a lot of good discussion around this particular topic.

(And Rico wasn't rehabbing his neck - he tore his hamstring in a match and wound up really shredding it)

There are lots of good points you guys made and I agree with most of them. The schedule has a LOT to do with it, keeping wrestlers in cars and airplane seats when some real rest would do them a world of good.

I said this way-back-when in another thread about this. Some pronouncement had come down about the "safe style" and it seemed as if the front office just stepped in and said "OK, no more of that exciting, airborne stuff. Keep it on the mat. We'll see you in Houston. Bye!"

And I'm not particularly upset with the "safe style" as I do like the mat-based wrestling a lot. The best matches this year have all had either Kurt Angle or HBK in them. But they could use a kind of clinic to help everyone else adjust. I know their schedules are already packed tight, but maybe that would have to be changed.

Regular people (like my husband, f'rinstance) have to take continuing ed. to brush up on their game. Wrestlers should get that same opportunity. Ease the schedule back, let someone run a bonafide wrestling clinic, and get everyone on the same page. You might even cure some of the Big Green Monster problem at the same time.

[Scott]

My experience with bodybuilding and weightlifting in general made me assume that overexertion is the factor here. I figure the theory with lifting that you should work a body part one day per week and rest the other six applies to these guys too. Lifting 200+ pounds over and over every night with no recuperation is going to lead to overexertion and damage the connective tissues. This leads to the tears that guys like Triple H, Kennedy, and Batista have had. Coincidentally, their injuries were some of the largest muscle groups in the body that are meant for heavy lifting.

[imbordisux]

A few things about safe-style and recent injuries:

1) The "safe style" is not to blame for poor matches; it is the fault of the participants, plain and simple. Yes, the amount of high-risk moves has reduced, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a million different LOW-risk moves certain guys could be doing. For instance, many people blame "safe style" for the million different chinlocks that we see from Randy Orton and Carlito, but if that's the case, why don't we see Benoit, Angle, Eddie (when he was alive), Trips, Shawn, and Flair busting them out on a regular basis? If you want to be a good wrestler, you have to be good, even if limitations are placed on you; it forces you to come up with more creative/realistic stuff than "450 from the balcony through a table". If Randy Orton and Carlito can't think of anything else to do between big moves, it's their own fault, not "safe style's".

2) About two years ago, I put forth a theory that the dramatic rise in neck- and back-injuries was due to the new rings Vince was using [RD posted it in large letters at the top of a "mailbag"]. Mick Foley said in one of his books that, after "King of the Ring 1998", Vince replaced the old, stiff rings, with newer, "bouncier" ones. Since then, the rate of neck- and back-injuries has completely sky-rocketed: not counting Austin or Lita (as they were due to one botched move, as opposed to wear and tear) or Angle (for obvious reasons), we had Benoit, Edge, Rhino, Scotty, and Nash needing neck-surgery, and Booker and Christian having recurring back-problems, and I know I missed a few (I seem to recall the number "11" in terms of how many people have had neck-surgery). You didn't see these types of injuries prior to 98, nor did you see them in any other fed, post-98. It can't just be "wear and tear", since there are so many more wrestlers the world over and at other times that clocked many more hours in the ring (and worked higher-impact styles) than many of the people who have had to have neck-surgery lately that didn't do that kind of damage to themselves.

My own feeling was that these new, "bouncy" rings were actually unsafe, as, while the better spring might absorb the impact of taking a bump better, it would also cause the head to hit the canvas, causing a whiplash effect; if you land on a hard-surface, you can tense your body and keep your head from hitting, but I would think that, on a *slightly* softer, more shock-absorbing surface, your head would be moving down while the mat is moving up, resulting in either a) the mat collides with your head (not major, but time after time, night after night?), or b) you have to strain to keep your body more rigid, and tilt your head up more to avoid it hitting the mat.

Of course, I'm no doctor, and this is all speculation, but it just seems odd that this rash of neck- and back-injuries started right after they replaced the rings.

[Mr. Zombie]

This is a great discussion. I stated before that for "safe style" to work, you have to know what you're doing and how to work it. I think at its best it leads to some of the best story built matches that you can have. I also think it dramtically cuts back the risk that a wrestler may hurt another wrestler doing a botched move. I would have to agree with everyone that the majority of injury does come from the extensive travel and wear and tear. It make slight injuries bad, and bad ones horrible. Also, you have to remember that these are behemoths out there tossing each other around. having 250 pound men collide and toss each other around constantly is of courses going to lead to injury.
Imbord, thats a pretty good theory, and it makes a lot of sense. But, I would also point out this: high flying risk taking wrestling didn't really break mainstream here in the states until '96-'98, and a lot of the neck and back injuries we are seeing now are, I think, are caused more by that, and are wear and tear since then. Safe Style may be more benficial to guys like Carlito and Chris Masters (new guys) than guys who went through the Attitude era, as wrestlers necks and backs and heads took a beating during this time ( i.e. Edge, who was in every TLC match). I don't see Randy Orton take piledrivers and powerbombs as much as Benoit or Austin may have, and his neck and back will probably be much better in the long run for this. What I'm saying is guys coming out of the attitude era were already damaged goods. Guys coming in will benefit more from safe style than Attitude era guys will. You're always going to have the accidental screw up (Masters destroying Stevie's face), but it happens. I would also say too that it was a lot easier to keep information like that confidential prior to '98, since the IWC didn't quite exist to the point that it does now. We may just hear more about injuries now.