Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Jan 16, 2013 14:50:26 GMT -5
I know this makes me a racist bigot, but I don't care. I don't think it's really "progress" until it's not a big deal, and therefore a character doesn't need a "push" just for not being a white male. It shouldn't really matter what they look like or their religion/who the writer has them f***ing. A company could re-boot a character (or a legacy character) as someone with my exact ethnic background and (too broken to talk about) sexuality, and I still don't think I'd identify with them. But again, I'm a racist bigot (apparently). I think you may a good point Kitsune. Ultimately comics are just another form of storytelling. If any reader can't get behind the character then the writers aren't doing there job. I'm sure there's some people who'd agree that it really isn't progress just to stick say a black superhero or a woman on the team. I mean look at the old superfriends tv show. In attempt to make the team more "diverse" some of the diversity characters come off looking very much like old stereotypes. They were there just to fill a role. I can remember some controversy when John Stewart was picked as the default green lantern for Justice League.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jan 16, 2013 14:57:03 GMT -5
I know this makes me a racist bigot, but I don't care. I don't think it's really "progress" until it's not a big deal, and therefore a character doesn't need a "push" just for not being a white male. It shouldn't really matter what they look like or their religion/who the writer has them f***ing. A company could re-boot a character (or a legacy character) as someone with my exact ethnic background and (too broken to talk about) sexuality, and I still don't think I'd identify with them. But again, I'm a racist bigot (apparently). I think you may a good point Kitsune. Ultimately comics are just another form of storytelling. If any reader can't get behind the character then the writers aren't doing there job. I'm sure there's some people who'd agree that it really isn't progress just to stick say a black superhero or a woman on the team. I mean look at the old superfriends tv show. In attempt to make the team more "diverse" some of the diversity characters come off looking very much like old stereotypes. They were there just to fill a role. I can remember some controversy when John Stewart was picked as the default green lantern for Justice League. I was one of the people who was ticked off about Stewart on Justice League, and it had nothing to do with color. Kyle Rayner was the current GL at DC Comics, and he had a really good fan following. Stewart on the other hand was always just kind of there. It was so obvious that they chose him soley due to skin color, same way it was obvious why they used Hawkgirl instead of an actual JL mainstay like Aquaman. They were trying too hard to be PC.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Jan 16, 2013 15:06:30 GMT -5
There's a difference between organic inclusivity and representation and cynical pandering. Usual stuff comes across as the later.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 16, 2013 16:10:26 GMT -5
There's a difference between organic inclusivity and representation and cynical pandering. Usual stuff comes across as the later. Expanding this line of conversation to fiction in general, I've been trying to work out my own storyline (text only, because I can't draw), but I'm really paranoid about trying to really do it at all, because I really had no intention of trying to make any social statement at all within the plot, but I know I'd still look bad because there isn't "fair representation" of certain identity groups ("Why aren't there any Arab characters? Where are the Transsexual characters?", and the beat goes on). I don't like the idea of trying to shoehorn in some sort of social message at all, in a setting that just isn't conducive to one (IMO), so I'm just kind of sitting on it all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2013 16:45:45 GMT -5
I feel the same as Kitsune. I'm black, but I don't get upset or anything if a piece of fiction (movie, book, comic, etc.) isn't racially diverse. You can have a diverse cast of characters who look the same.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jan 16, 2013 19:00:17 GMT -5
Kitsune you brought up a good point, IMO. Whenever they retool a major character to be of a new race they make a media circus out of it when instead it should be a, "So what?" type affair. Like when Marvel announced the new Ultimate Spider-Man was half black half Latino. That was the wrong way to do it. They made a spectacle out of the new Spider-Man having brown skin. Instead they should've been hyping up that for once Peter Parker wasn't Spider-Man, with the new Spider-Man's race being an afterthought. And of course DC had a similar media circus going on when they turned Alan Scott gay spreading the story through the media that they were turning an established character gay, of course being coy as to who it was thus leading to most people joking it was Batman(har har). I'm still pissed at them for choosing Alan Scott, as turning him gay removed two additional characters from existence, one of which was a long established gay character, and the other being a character I liked(yes I liked Jade, bite me). If DC really wanted to make headlines with turning a character gay they should've made Wonder Woman gay(or at least bi). Think about it, a female warrior from an island of female warriors and limited contact with males? There's no way she doesn't at least partially swing that way. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Jan 16, 2013 19:09:45 GMT -5
There's a difference between organic inclusivity and representation and cynical pandering. Usual stuff comes across as the later. Expanding this line of conversation to fiction in general, I've been trying to work out my own storyline (text only, because I can't draw), but I'm really paranoid about trying to really do it at all, because I really had no intention of trying to make any social statement at all within the plot, but I know I'd still look bad because there isn't "fair representation" of certain identity groups ("Why aren't there any Arab characters? Where are the Transsexual characters?", and the beat goes on). I don't like the idea of trying to shoehorn in some sort of social message at all, in a setting that just isn't conducive to one (IMO), so I'm just kind of sitting on it all. Well Kitsune, I'd wouldn't worry about the social message. People often tie social messages after the fact. George Romero has often been questioned about the social commentary in Night of the Living Dead and he's always said it was just him and his friends trying to make a scary movie.
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JDviant
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Post by JDviant on Jan 16, 2013 19:23:55 GMT -5
While the press-release, big-tease things they do now suck, its the only way to get non-comic reading fans to pay attention. 40's Green Lantern being gay was news because people got to hear about it; how many non-DC readers would know 70's Starman was bisexual, and had been openly since the mid-to-late 90's? So I can see why they do make a big deal about it, because the vast majority of the world doesn't know what happens in the pages of a comic unless someone is screaming it at them. Comics can change, but I understand wanting to let people know you have.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jan 16, 2013 22:05:09 GMT -5
Kitsune you brought up a good point, IMO. Whenever they retool a major character to be of a new race they make a media circus out of it when instead it should be a, "So what?" type affair. Like when Marvel announced the new Ultimate Spider-Man was half black half Latino. That was the wrong way to do it. They made a spectacle out of the new Spider-Man having brown skin. Instead they should've been hyping up that for once Peter Parker wasn't Spider-Man, with the new Spider-Man's race being an afterthought. And of course DC had a similar media circus going on when they turned Alan Scott gay spreading the story through the media that they were turning an established character gay, of course being coy as to who it was thus leading to most people joking it was Batman(har har). I'm still pissed at them for choosing Alan Scott, as turning him gay removed two additional characters from existence, one of which was a long established gay character, and the other being a character I liked(yes I liked Jade, bite me). If DC really wanted to make headlines with turning a character gay they should've made Wonder Woman gay(or at least bi). Think about it, a female warrior from an island of female warriors and limited contact with males? There's no way she doesn't at least partially swing that way. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) with Alan Scott I didn't mind so much. it's a new version of the character, not the same guy, sorta like Ultimate Colossus. that said, I look at the New 52 like "the old universe still exists, they just aren't writing about it anymore". it takes the sting out a bit, particularly because Wally West is my favorite superhero. as for Wondy, Greg Rucka, George Perez and Gail Simone have all said they wrote her as if she was bisexual, they just couldn't out-and-out say it. and Brian Azzarello's made a few hints of his own, so it's practically canon at this point.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Jan 16, 2013 23:35:11 GMT -5
Kitsune you brought up a good point, IMO. Whenever they retool a major character to be of a new race they make a media circus out of it when instead it should be a, "So what?" type affair. Like when Marvel announced the new Ultimate Spider-Man was half black half Latino. That was the wrong way to do it. They made a spectacle out of the new Spider-Man having brown skin. Instead they should've been hyping up that for once Peter Parker wasn't Spider-Man, with the new Spider-Man's race being an afterthought. And of course DC had a similar media circus going on when they turned Alan Scott gay spreading the story through the media that they were turning an established character gay, of course being coy as to who it was thus leading to most people joking it was Batman(har har). I'm still pissed at them for choosing Alan Scott, as turning him gay removed two additional characters from existence, one of which was a long established gay character, and the other being a character I liked(yes I liked Jade, bite me). If DC really wanted to make headlines with turning a character gay they should've made Wonder Woman gay(or at least bi). Think about it, a female warrior from an island of female warriors and limited contact with males? There's no way she doesn't at least partially swing that way. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) as for Wondy, Greg Rucka, George Perez and Gail Simone have all said they wrote her as if she was bisexual, they just couldn't out-and-out say it. and Brian Azzarello's made a few hints of his own, so it's practically canon at this point. Thinking about it, it does seem like perfect sense right? You grow up on an island full of women, no men in sight you're more than likely going to think Sapphic love is the norm.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Jan 17, 2013 0:50:33 GMT -5
If anyone's read the entire Neil Gaiman Sandman run the last issue which really was only just a way to end it on a happy note and close the book on a favorite second string character had a unique take on this that I never caught on to the first dozen times I read it.
Neil mentioned that there were only like three or four black women who had speaking roles in the entire run and someone pointed out that they all ended up dead (then again a lot of people did so it deosn't really stick out). So Gaiman ended the series with a black woman walking off into the sunset happy and alive, shortly after the embodiment of Death showed up to talk to her bf.
... and you wouldn't even notice that unless you were told I'd bet.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 17, 2013 4:20:12 GMT -5
Dick Grayson is part Roma, for what that is worth, and he is one of the most famous characters in comic history.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jan 17, 2013 10:53:03 GMT -5
there was also Judd Winnick's infamous "Kyle Rayner is mexican" retcon that everyone ignored because he's pretty damn white and already had a well-established backstory as the son of Irish immigrants. Winnick's pretty notorious for trying to include diversity in the most forceful and ham-fisted ways possible. he also had Kyle Rayner leave earth because his gay assistant got beaten up even though he's already gone through much worse things (3 girlfriends killed) and never acted like such an emo about it before.
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