The Doctor
Dennis Stamp
New teeth. That's weird.
Posts: 4,952
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Post by The Doctor on Jan 29, 2013 11:16:04 GMT -5
It has made sense in pro wrestling for decades. That has pretty much been the foundation of the business for as long as it's been around. Just like it is in superhero comics or cowboy films. The good guy/bad guy thing is a fundamental ingredient. The shorter the feuds, the less it works. Right now, feuds are super-accelerated, and most people aren't even IN feuds, they just kind of float around being good or bad. It doesn't work. In the absence of a weekly TV show, maybe face/heel stuff works. But right now, trying to sell the idea that "this guy is just innately good, trust us!" isn't going to be believed. It works perfectly fine and it is believed. The whole grey area thing is a nice idea but in practice it rarely works. When people go to a wrestling show they want people to cheer and people to boo. It has always worked like that and continues to work like that. Maybe the term good guy and bad guy in it's truest sense doesn't fit any more. But that's why we say Face and Heel instead.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Jan 29, 2013 11:16:56 GMT -5
To me, good faces are all vulnerable but they can do it a couple of different ways.
Sting, Mick Foley, HBK, and Hogan believe it or not are good examples of one type where they'll take a huge beating but come back and Del Rio is getting there but them do that without Ricardo being the one beaten to hell. They would get destroyed in the build ups and then over come all that to win.
Batista, Ryback, Warrior and Austin are the bad ass types. You knew when you saw them that you were going to see a mugging in the ring. They were going to go in there, leave it all in the ring and hopefully destroy someone though it was far from a guarantee. There was always something that could stop them.
I come around from just respecting Cena to rooting for him in most cases because since MitB 2011 he's been vulnerable. Yes he won a lot but you didn't know. The Rock stuff, Punk stuff, beatings from Brock and though in 2010 the Nexus stuff made him seem human and a guy who was actually fighting to win and not just waiting to win.
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Dragonfly
Samurai Cop
...is no Barry Windham.
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Post by Dragonfly on Jan 29, 2013 11:27:09 GMT -5
Big E Langston in NXT is easily my favorite face at the moment. He's the new Monty Brown - not the best best wrestler ever, but so damn charismatic and likable that I can't help but root for the guy.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jan 29, 2013 11:30:25 GMT -5
Just stop with the stand up comedy and crowd pandering and I could behind someone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 11:30:32 GMT -5
At this point? Just not be a dick.
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The Doctor
Dennis Stamp
New teeth. That's weird.
Posts: 4,952
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Post by The Doctor on Jan 29, 2013 11:41:10 GMT -5
At this point? Just not be a dick. Being a dick has always been a component part of being a Face really. Right back to Hulk Hogan. Just as long as the person you're being a dick to is a bigger dick than you. And generally they still abide by that rule now. I think the difference is that certain sections of the audience like Heels more than Faces these days. So that old fashioned thing of Heels getting what they deserve isn't as well received by those people. See CM Punk for a good example. He systematically told everyone in the crowd that he hated them more or less but still gets cheered. So good Heel work and good Face work is kind of ignored by that section of the audience.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Jan 29, 2013 11:44:40 GMT -5
At this point? Just not be a dick. I don't think they cannot be a dick, the heel just has to be a worse dick. I don't want the face going on about how the heel is ugly and no one will ever love the heel if all the heel did was put him in a match he didn't like.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 11:48:40 GMT -5
At this point? Just not be a dick. Being a dick has always been a component part of being a Face really. Right back to Hulk Hogan. Just as long as the person you're being a dick to is a bigger dick than you. And generally they still abide by that rule now. I think the difference is that certain sections of the audience like Heels more than Faces these days. So that old fashioned thing of Heels getting what they deserve isn't as well received by those people. See CM Punk for a good example. He systematically told everyone in the crowd that he hated them more or less but still gets cheered. So good Heel work and good Face work is kind of ignored by that section of the audience. maybe that's why WWE hasn't been able to build a new star since Cena. They're relying on gimmicks and characterization that worked 20-30 years ago. LIVE IN THE NOW WWE!!!/Garth Algar
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The Doctor
Dennis Stamp
New teeth. That's weird.
Posts: 4,952
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Post by The Doctor on Jan 29, 2013 11:53:54 GMT -5
Being a dick has always been a component part of being a Face really. Right back to Hulk Hogan. Just as long as the person you're being a dick to is a bigger dick than you. And generally they still abide by that rule now. I think the difference is that certain sections of the audience like Heels more than Faces these days. So that old fashioned thing of Heels getting what they deserve isn't as well received by those people. See CM Punk for a good example. He systematically told everyone in the crowd that he hated them more or less but still gets cheered. So good Heel work and good Face work is kind of ignored by that section of the audience. maybe that's why WWE hasn't been able to build a new star since Cena. They're relying on gimmicks and characterization that worked 20-30 years ago. LIVE IN THE NOW WWE!!!/Garth Algar And judging by John Cena and Sheamus and Punk before he turned it still works now!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 11:59:21 GMT -5
maybe that's why WWE hasn't been able to build a new star since Cena. They're relying on gimmicks and characterization that worked 20-30 years ago. LIVE IN THE NOW WWE!!!/Garth Algar And judging by John Cena and Sheamus and Punk before he turned it still works now! Punk...maybe. Sheamus has a long way to go before becoming a guy who can carry the company. I mean - two guys in the past 7 years? Not exactly a sterling track record.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 29, 2013 12:08:35 GMT -5
The whole grey area thing is a nice idea but in practice it rarely works. When people go to a wrestling show they want people to cheer and people to boo. It has always worked like that and continues to work like that. Maybe the term good guy and bad guy in it's truest sense doesn't fit any more. But that's why we say Face and Heel instead. I'm not talking about gray areas, I'm talking about having heels be bad because they're acting badly right now toward someone, and faces be good because they're in a situation where they're being a good guy. You know... making the plot superior to the performers, instead of just trying to portray that a person is Bad even though they never act badly.
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The Doctor
Dennis Stamp
New teeth. That's weird.
Posts: 4,952
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Post by The Doctor on Jan 29, 2013 12:10:49 GMT -5
And judging by John Cena and Sheamus and Punk before he turned it still works now! Punk...maybe. Sheamus has a long way to go before becoming a guy who can carry the company. I mean - two guys in the past 7 years? Not exactly a sterling track record. I wouldn't say Sheamus has a long way to go at all. People like him a lot. Ryback is another. The final 10 minutes of the Royal Rumble is a good barometer of this. It was incredibly exciting because of the fact that it was star studded. Cena, Ryback, Sheamus, Ziggler, Orton and Jericho. All guys who are over big time despite WWE's perceived out-dated booking.
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Post by Johawn on Jan 29, 2013 12:12:02 GMT -5
Sheamus minus the jokes. Sheamus, against all odds, is one of my favourite guys right now, in the ring. He's intense, he's hard hitting, and he holds his own, which means no superman comebacks. The second he opens his mouth 90% of the time I'm disappointed. Why does it have to be "Hey, fella, I may be white, but I can fight yer a big goof and you have bad breath" and not "You shouldn't have done that. It's on."?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 12:13:38 GMT -5
Punk...maybe. Sheamus has a long way to go before becoming a guy who can carry the company. I mean - two guys in the past 7 years? Not exactly a sterling track record. I wouldn't say Sheamus has a long way to go at all. People like him a lot. Ryback is another. The final 10 minutes of the Royal Rumble is a good barometer of this. It was incredibly exciting because of the fact that it was star studded. Cena, Ryback, Sheamus, Ziggler, Orton and Jericho. All guys who are over big time despite WWE's perceived out-dated booking. Cena: Face, but hated by half the crowd in many cities. Ryback: Long way to go to actually having a character - face or otherwise. Sheamus: on his way... Ziggler: #HEEL Orton: Forgot about him, but yeah on that one. Jericho: Just got back to soon to tell where he's at. My point is - if your top "face" in the last 7 years is hated by half your audience (approx, probably not really half, but not too far off) then maybe its time for fresh tactics.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 29, 2013 12:16:50 GMT -5
I wouldn't say Sheamus has a long way to go at all. People like him a lot. Ryback is another. The final 10 minutes of the Royal Rumble is a good barometer of this. It was incredibly exciting because of the fact that it was star studded. Cena, Ryback, Sheamus, Ziggler, Orton and Jericho. All guys who are over big time despite WWE's perceived out-dated booking. Uh... were you paying attention to the way that crowd was reacting? I heard a hell of a lot of support for Jericho and Orton. I heard a hell of a lot of support/derision for Cena. I heard very very little for the other guys, except when they were beating up Cena.
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The Doctor
Dennis Stamp
New teeth. That's weird.
Posts: 4,952
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Post by The Doctor on Jan 29, 2013 12:17:53 GMT -5
The whole grey area thing is a nice idea but in practice it rarely works. When people go to a wrestling show they want people to cheer and people to boo. It has always worked like that and continues to work like that. Maybe the term good guy and bad guy in it's truest sense doesn't fit any more. But that's why we say Face and Heel instead. I'm not talking about gray areas, I'm talking about having heels be bad because they're acting badly right now toward someone, and faces be good because they're in a situation where they're being a good guy. You know... making the plot superior to the performers, instead of just trying to portray that a person is Bad even though they never act badly. I guess it's all perception. Because I don't see the problem here.
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The Doctor
Dennis Stamp
New teeth. That's weird.
Posts: 4,952
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Post by The Doctor on Jan 29, 2013 12:22:08 GMT -5
I wouldn't say Sheamus has a long way to go at all. People like him a lot. Ryback is another. The final 10 minutes of the Royal Rumble is a good barometer of this. It was incredibly exciting because of the fact that it was star studded. Cena, Ryback, Sheamus, Ziggler, Orton and Jericho. All guys who are over big time despite WWE's perceived out-dated booking. Uh... were you paying attention to the way that crowd was reacting? I heard a hell of a lot of support for Jericho and Orton. I heard a hell of a lot of support/derision for Cena. I heard very very little for the other guys, except when they were beating up Cena. What I heard was a crowd who were entirely into the match. Yes most of it came for John Cena but Sheamus and Ryback got reactions too. Just as they do on every show.
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Post by milkomania on Jan 29, 2013 12:43:08 GMT -5
I'd like to see a guy who's faithful to his girlfriend or best friend and not a douchebag to her/him. I'm not saying make damsels in distress valets, but some sort of sympathetic character to accompany the face that the face cares about as much if not more than a title.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Jan 29, 2013 12:53:45 GMT -5
I could cheer for most faces if
A) They didn't act like an utter coward like the Miz last night B) Their promos don't consist of lame jokes and lame humour (Sheamus) C) They don't have little temper tantrums when they lose or when things don't go their way (Shemus and Kofi)
Cena would be awesome if he left the lame jokes behind. Like tonight, I loved his promo. It was straight to the point without childish filler nonsense and it made me want to cheer him.
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Post by Chardee MacDennis on Jan 29, 2013 12:54:39 GMT -5
Del Rio is such a good face right now. He has me watching Smackdown, which i haven't done regularly since 2006.
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