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Post by Cela on Mar 2, 2013 21:01:57 GMT -5
Seriously. That mofo has a death count in the millions and neither Batman nor the proper authorities still can't kill him for some reason. Its just one of those comic laws that doesn't hold up in reality. Yeah, the Joker would have gotten the death sentence a thousand times over in the real world but if you kill him in the comic then you lose a great character that's been around for decades. You just have to kind of roll with it. Which would be ok if the comics didn't go into gymnastic overload trying to justify his existence as anything other than a corpse. Jason Todd Barbara Gordon's spine Gordon's Wife The Daily Planet (Kingdom Come) Countless others But no! If he dies, then he wins! *Judgemental Batman Glare*
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CMWaters
Ozymandius
Rolled a Seven, Beat the Ads.
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Post by CMWaters on Mar 2, 2013 21:05:13 GMT -5
Its just one of those comic laws that doesn't hold up in reality. Yeah, the Joker would have gotten the death sentence a thousand times over in the real world but if you kill him in the comic then you lose a great character that's been around for decades. You just have to kind of roll with it. Which would be ok if the comics didn't go into gymnastic overload trying to justify his existence as anything other than a corpse. Jason Todd Barbara Gordon's spine Gordon's Wife The Daily Planet (Kingdom Come) Countless others But no! If he dies, then he wins! *Judgemental Batman Glare* Worse offender of that, from what I've heard, was in one of the Batman/Punisher comics. Punisher has Joker dead to rights, Joker realizes Punisher doesn't give a shit about a moral code...and yet Batman STILL saves Joker from Punisher.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Mar 3, 2013 9:42:08 GMT -5
Its just one of those comic laws that doesn't hold up in reality. Yeah, the Joker would have gotten the death sentence a thousand times over in the real world but if you kill him in the comic then you lose a great character that's been around for decades. You just have to kind of roll with it. Which would be ok if the comics didn't go into gymnastic overload trying to justify his existence as anything other than a corpse. Jason Todd Barbara Gordon's spine Gordon's Wife The Daily Planet (Kingdom Come) Countless others But no! If he dies, then he wins! *Judgemental Batman Glare* it's also part of why its problematic to include Wildstorm characters like Midnighter and Apollo in the same universe. Midnighter by all means would just teleport to Gotham, rip out Joker's spine and be home in time for cuddles. I can buy why Batman's never killed Joker, but it doesn't make any sense why nobody else has. it's like trying to justify the hatred mutants get in the Marvel U when the Avengers (who have Mutants on the team) and the Fantastic Four are celebrated. I think a good way of getting around it would be to tone down the Joker's evil in favor of making him the Clown Prince of Crime again (more concerned with being a crook and being funny, less concerned with being a genocidal monster) and cut out the "he's killed tholusands of people" crap because it just makes Batman look ineffective. but I guess that won't happen because people seem to love the genocidal psycho so much these days.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,037
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Post by dav on Mar 3, 2013 9:55:24 GMT -5
Which would be ok if the comics didn't go into gymnastic overload trying to justify his existence as anything other than a corpse. Jason Todd Barbara Gordon's spine Gordon's Wife The Daily Planet (Kingdom Come) Countless others But no! If he dies, then he wins! *Judgemental Batman Glare* it's also part of why its problematic to include Wildstorm characters like Midnighter and Apollo in the same universe. Midnighter by all means would just teleport to Gotham, rip out Joker's spine and be home in time for cuddles. I can buy why Batman's never killed Joker, but it doesn't make any sense why nobody else has. it's like trying to justify the hatred mutants get in the Marvel U when the Avengers (who have Mutants on the team) and the Fantastic Four are celebrated. I think a good way of getting around it would be to tone down the Joker's evil in favor of making him the Clown Prince of Crime again (more concerned with being a crook and being funny, less concerned with being a genocidal monster) and cut out the "he's killed tholusands of people" crap because it just makes Batman look ineffective. but I guess that won't happen because people seem to love the genocidal psycho so much these days. I always thought more stories like 'Joker's Favour' from the BATAS would be the best method to follow in this. He doesn't kill anyone, is quite cartoonish and doesn't do much in the way of damage. But he just holds the threat over one guy's head and comes close to utterly ruining his life and you believe he'd do it without a single thought. If they used that interpretation a lot more, I reckon it'd be much easier to take in.
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Post by Hurbster on Mar 3, 2013 10:39:39 GMT -5
Well in Kingdom Come someone DOES kill Joker after he gasses the Daily Planet. And of course Supes has a hissy fit and retires.
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CMWaters
Ozymandius
Rolled a Seven, Beat the Ads.
Bald and busy
Posts: 63,091
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Post by CMWaters on Mar 3, 2013 10:40:50 GMT -5
Well in Kingdom Come someone DOES kill Joker after he gasses the Daily Planet. And of course Supes has a hissy fit and retires. Which again is kind of funny considering the picture I put in spoilers on the previous page.
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Post by hotshotalex on Mar 3, 2013 14:00:47 GMT -5
Which would be ok if the comics didn't go into gymnastic overload trying to justify his existence as anything other than a corpse. Jason Todd Barbara Gordon's spine Gordon's Wife The Daily Planet (Kingdom Come) Countless others But no! If he dies, then he wins! *Judgemental Batman Glare* Worse offender of that, from what I've heard, was in one of the Batman/Punisher comics. Punisher has Joker dead to rights, Joker realizes Punisher doesn't give a s*** about a moral code...and yet Batman STILL saves Joker from Punisher. That doesn't really count in any continuity because it's one of the Marvel/DC crossovers but the funniest thing about that comic is that Batman tells the Joker to run away while he deals with The Punisher. He doesn't just prevent him from not being killed he let's him get away!
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Post by Joe Neglia on Mar 3, 2013 14:17:05 GMT -5
The biggest problem with the Joker dilemma is over-exposure. Once he really got to that level during the 80s (Killing Joke, Death in the Family) where things got dark and personal between Batman and Joker, he was not too far from showing up far too often. For the Joker to really work as a character in Batman's world, he really needs to only show up once or so every five years (our time) and always be in a position where Batman can't do the job, even if he finally decided he had to. No arrests, no prisons. They have to end in such a way that either through escape, apparent death or something else entirely, he's left out there where Batman can't get him.
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Post by mjolnir on Mar 3, 2013 14:21:09 GMT -5
Yeah, that's one aspect I really liked about The Death of the Family bringing back, Joker's supposed death motif. It was used equally well in TAS in the 90's, where it was hard to believe he survived but there was no real way to check.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Mar 4, 2013 10:19:13 GMT -5
Well in Kingdom Come someone DOES kill Joker after he gasses the Daily Planet. And of course Supes has a hissy fit and retires. fantastic story based on an utterly ridiculous premise. some days I think Waid was trying to make a point about how ultimately ineffectual such black and white morality would be.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Mar 4, 2013 10:21:04 GMT -5
The biggest problem with the Joker dilemma is over-exposure. Once he really got to that level during the 80s (Killing Joke, Death in the Family) where things got dark and personal between Batman and Joker, he was not too far from showing up far too often. For the Joker to really work as a character in Batman's world, he really needs to only show up once or so every five years (our time) and always be in a position where Batman can't do the job, even if he finally decided he had to. No arrests, no prisons. They have to end in such a way that either through escape, apparent death or something else entirely, he's left out there where Batman can't get him. it also doesn't help that when he does show up the writers feel the need to artificially inflate his kill count into the thousands, which makes not only Batman but law-enforcement in general look incompetent. I call it the Mark Millar effect; "lets make the bad guy ridiculously evil to the point where it breaks suspension of disbelief but people will buy it anyway because they equate dark-n-edgy with good".
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