Would the screwjob have been as big of a deal

[Throwback]

If it wasn't for Wrestling with shadows?

[JCBaggee]

Yeah? People knew what happened, and Wrestling With Shadows wasn't even out until over a year after the screwjob.

[Free Hat]

Among wrestling fans? Of course. I mean Jesus, it basically launched the Attitude era and turned Vince McMahon into the biggest heel in the business.

I don't think it would be as well known to the mainstream public without the documentary though. I mean, I know non-wrestling fans who at least have some idea of what it was because of this movie.

[celticjobber]

Yeah, it was a huge deal. Wrestling With Shadows simply capitalized on the controversy, it didn't create it.

[ritt works hard fo da chickens]

Yes. I'd say a reverse is more true. Would "Wrestling With Shadows" have been more then a niche film only a very few saw if Bret and Vince had parted on good terms?

[Throwback]

Mar 15, 2013 1:47:33 GMT -5 Free Hat said:

I don't think it would be as well known to the mainstream public without the documentary though. I mean, I know non-wrestling fans who at least have some idea of what it was because of this movie.

Now correct me if I'm wrong. I was 14 when it happened and had other things on my mind than wrestling at the time. But wasn't it Wrestling With Shadows that created the Evil McMahon Character? or was that done on TV? Also without seeing Bret's point of view would as many people have really cared? I mean Vince pulled the screwjob on Wendi Richter back in the day and nobody ever talks about that.

[kidglov3s]

Mar 15, 2013 11:51:02 GMT -5 Throwback said:

Mar 15, 2013 1:47:33 GMT -5 Free Hat said:

I don't think it would be as well known to the mainstream public without the documentary though. I mean, I know non-wrestling fans who at least have some idea of what it was because of this movie.

Now correct me if I'm wrong. I was 14 when it happened and had other things on my mind than wrestling at the time. But wasn't it Wrestling With Shadows that created the Evil McMahon Character? or was that done on TV? Also without seeing Bret's point of view would as many people have really cared? I mean Vince pulled the screwjob on Wendi Richter back in the day and nobody ever talks about that.

The arc for Mr. McMahon began in September of 1997, with Vince trying to get Austin to take time off to heal when Austin wanted to come back early and kick everyone's ass. The mask came off completely after Stone Cold won the WWF title in April 1998. Wrestling With Shadows was released in November/December 1998. So no.

And as far as Wrestling With Shadows raising the awareness of the screwjob beyond the wrestling bubble, even if it might have aired on A&E if you're not a wrestling fan you don't know what the Montreal Screwjob is and never did. You also probably don't know who Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart are, for that matter.

[Throwback]

Mar 15, 2013 11:54:57 GMT -5 kidglov3s said:

Mar 15, 2013 11:51:02 GMT -5 Throwback said:

Now correct me if I'm wrong. I was 14 when it happened and had other things on my mind than wrestling at the time. But wasn't it Wrestling With Shadows that created the Evil McMahon Character? or was that done on TV? Also without seeing Bret's point of view would as many people have really cared? I mean Vince pulled the screwjob on Wendi Richter back in the day and nobody ever talks about that.

The arc for Mr. McMahon began in September of 1997, with Vince trying to get Austin to take time off to heal when Austin wanted to come back early and kick everyone's ass. The mask came off completely after Stone Cold won the WWF title in April 1998. Wrestling With Shadows was released in November/December 1998. So no.

And as far as Wrestling With Shadows raising the awareness of the screwjob beyond the wrestling bubble, even if it might have aired on A&E if you're not a wrestling fan you don't know what the Montreal Screwjob is and never did. You also probably don't know who Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart are, for that matter.

Oh wow. I really thought When Bret had his anti Vince Rant while they were taking down the cage was the first time anyone even hinted that Vince was in power. Then I thought Wrestling with Shadows came out before the Austin Vs McMahon storyline. Thanks for clearing that up. You raise a good point about casuals not knowing who Shawn and Bret were. But do you think it would have been as big a deal if we didn't see Bret's side of things after the fact? I know it's not the first screwjob but I feel the movie really brought it into attention. You could argue Bret's statue in the company. But when Wendi Richter was screwed she was pretty much the female Hogan and then she drifted into obscurity shortly after.

[Free Hat]

Mar 15, 2013 11:54:57 GMT -5 kidglov3s said:

Mar 15, 2013 11:51:02 GMT -5 Throwback said:

Now correct me if I'm wrong. I was 14 when it happened and had other things on my mind than wrestling at the time. But wasn't it Wrestling With Shadows that created the Evil McMahon Character? or was that done on TV? Also without seeing Bret's point of view would as many people have really cared? I mean Vince pulled the screwjob on Wendi Richter back in the day and nobody ever talks about that.

The arc for Mr. McMahon began in September of 1997, with Vince trying to get Austin to take time off to heal when Austin wanted to come back early and kick everyone's ass. The mask came off completely after Stone Cold won the WWF title in April 1998. Wrestling With Shadows was released in November/December 1998. So no.

And as far as Wrestling With Shadows raising the awareness of the screwjob beyond the wrestling bubble, even if it might have aired on A&E if you're not a wrestling fan you don't know what the Montreal Screwjob is and never did. You also probably don't know who Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart are, for that matter.

Unless you're Canadian. Bret's a big enough celebrity up here to be recognized by a large number of non-fans, even if it's only as "that wrestler guy." The Screwjob is interesting, because even though a non-fan could never fully understand it, I've met some who have a vague idea of what happened. Usually some variant of "Vince McMahon changed the script without telling the guy."

[kidglov3s]

Mar 15, 2013 20:39:34 GMT -5 Free Hat said:

Mar 15, 2013 11:54:57 GMT -5 kidglov3s said:

The arc for Mr. McMahon began in September of 1997, with Vince trying to get Austin to take time off to heal when Austin wanted to come back early and kick everyone's ass. The mask came off completely after Stone Cold won the WWF title in April 1998. Wrestling With Shadows was released in November/December 1998. So no.

And as far as Wrestling With Shadows raising the awareness of the screwjob beyond the wrestling bubble, even if it might have aired on A&E if you're not a wrestling fan you don't know what the Montreal Screwjob is and never did. You also probably don't know who Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart are, for that matter.

Unless you're Canadian. Bret's a big enough celebrity up here to be recognized by a large number of non-fans, even if it's only as "that wrestler guy." The Screwjob is interesting, because even though a non-fan could never fully understand it, I've met some who have a vague idea of what happened. Usually some variant of "Vince McMahon changed the script without telling the guy."

I'm happy to hear that. Too many times people have said they were Canadian and I was like "RUSH AND BRET!" and they didn't know who Bret was.

[Free Hat]

Mar 15, 2013 21:11:36 GMT -5 kidglov3s said:

Mar 15, 2013 20:39:34 GMT -5 Free Hat said:

Unless you're Canadian. Bret's a big enough celebrity up here to be recognized by a large number of non-fans, even if it's only as "that wrestler guy." The Screwjob is interesting, because even though a non-fan could never fully understand it, I've met some who have a vague idea of what happened. Usually some variant of "Vince McMahon changed the script without telling the guy."

I'm happy to hear that. Too many times people have said they were Canadian and I was like "RUSH AND BRET!" and they didn't know who Bret was.

Well yeah, I would expect that. Bret's not quite up there in that Hogan territory where literally everybody knows who he is, but I would put him on the very next tier, along with Austin, Macho Man, the Undertaker and a few others as far as public recognition is concerned.

[Throwback]

Mar 15, 2013 21:42:35 GMT -5 Free Hat said:

Mar 15, 2013 21:11:36 GMT -5 kidglov3s said:

I'm happy to hear that. Too many times people have said they were Canadian and I was like "RUSH AND BRET!" and they didn't know who Bret was.

Well yeah, I would expect that. Bret's not quite up there in that Hogan territory where literally everybody knows who he is, but I would put him on the very next tier, along with Austin, Macho Man, the Undertaker and a few others as far as public recognition is concerned.

I'm Canadian. (East Coast) I find a lot of non fans know who Bret is but get him confused with Owen. They say "He's the wrestler that died right?" Then when I tell them that was his little brother, they say "Oh the black haired one?" But when he was at his height of the Canada vs U.S.A feud. Most people here knew who he was.

[RowdyRobbyPiper]

www.filibustercartoons.com/greatest%20Canadians.htm

This was a 2004 blog commenting on CBC's Greatest Canadians series. The voting was done by CBC viewers and I believe, the Top Ten were the basis of the series as it aired. Nonetheless, the remaining 90 placements were revealed. Bret came in at number 39. No, he wasn't close to the top, but he was well ahead of a number of people that I figured would have placed higher. He placed higher than, Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell, Margaret Atwood, Glenn Gould, Billy Bishop, Gordie Howe, Henry Morgentaler, John Diefenbaker and McKenzie King. I would expect a wrestler scoring a similar (or even higher ranking) in a similar poll in Japan or Mexico. Yet Bret's comparatively high score speaks to the level of his fame in Canada. If the same poll in the US was done, I don't think any American pro wrestler wold come within sniffing distance of the top 100.

[Deleted]

I think that the screwjob would have been an even bigger deal for wrestling fans without 'Wrestling With Shadows' as is that filled in a lot of blanks at a time when the internet wasn't as prevalent as it is now.

[kidglov3s]

Mar 16, 2013 7:11:19 GMT -5 RowdyRobbyPiper said:

www.filibustercartoons.com/greatest%20Canadians.htm

This was a 2004 blog commenting on CBC's Greatest Canadians series. The voting was done by CBC viewers and I believe, the Top Ten were the basis of the series as it aired. Nonetheless, the remaining 90 placements were revealed. Bret came in at number 39. No, he wasn't close to the top, but he was well ahead of a number of people that I figured would have placed higher. He placed higher than, Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell, Margaret Atwood, Glenn Gould, Billy Bishop, Gordie Howe, Henry Morgentaler, John Diefenbaker and McKenzie King. I would expect a wrestler scoring a similar (or even higher ranking) in a similar poll in Japan or Mexico. Yet Bret's comparatively high score speaks to the level of his fame in Canada. If the same poll in the US was done, I don't think any American pro wrestler wold come within sniffing distance of the top 100.

Well, Ric Flair was gonna be no. 2 (behind Jesus) in Time's poll for Man of the Century until The Man said "TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO NOT EMBARRASS US"

www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/17016/a-flair-for-the-absurd/

A Flair for the Absurd
By Dave McKenna • April 2, 1999
Wrestler Ric Flair, the reigning WCW heavyweight champion, poses a very embarrassing Y2K problem for the folks at Time magazine.

Flair, a decorated 27-year ring veteran, risks his belt against Hollywood Hogan in Fairfax on Good Friday. But his mind may not be on that match. Flair is currently and inexplicably in the running for the loftiest title Time has ever sought to bestow on anybody. Last spring, the online wing of the newsweekly, Time.com, began taking votes for a "Person of the Century" poll, with the winner to be announced in a special issue set to hit newsstands in late 1999. "Billions of people have lived this century. See the 100 we should all remember," reads a headline on the Web page. Editors figured the survey would bring attention to the site and foster intellectual debate among Internet users.

They were only half-right. To date, more than 20 million votes have been cast in the poll, making it the most popular interactive feature in Time.com's history. But from the start, the debate has been far less brainy than brawny.

Flair fans and other morons with modems immediately began casting votes for the wrestler. And they haven't stopped. Expected and logical contenders for the crown, from good guys like Gandhi and Pope John Paul II to heels like Hitler, have proved no match for Flair. As of last weekend, the wrestler had notched more than 310,000 votes, the second-highest total in the poll and about 122,000 votes ahead of third-place Hitler. For now, the only guy between Flair and the Time title is the Son of God himself, Jesus Christ.

Time spokespeople swear they're as surprised as anybody to see Flair among the front-runners this far into the project.

"I had never even heard of Ric Flair before," chuckles Janice Castro, editor of Time.com. "This has been an education for a lot of us."

Flair deserves some notoriety. For the uninitiated, Flair (born Richard Fliehr) is and has long been the "Nature Boy," a dazzling performer inside the squared circle—he's recognized as the father of the Figure-Four Leg-Lock, a punishing closing move that stretches the opponent's knee ligaments. Flair also has a few choice moves once he leaves the ring, demonstrating a hilarious, captivating genius for trash talk that leaves even the most seasoned opponents struggling for a comeback.

The Minnesota native took up wrestling in 1972 under the eye of legendary Minneapolitan grappler Verne Gagne. Along the way to winning world championship belts in essentially every major wrestling organization around the globe, Flair, now 49, garnered a reputation as the best interview in the history of the sport, or whatever you want to call it. His pre-match pronouncements ("If you wanna be the man...you gotta beat the man!"), cocky strut, and whoooooping made him the Main Man on the marathon Sunday night telecasts of the NWA that Ted Turner's TBS showed throughout the '80s. Now, he's on the cusp of being Main Man of the Century.

Flair always has been a fabulous self-promoter; he was so absorbed with being champ that he actually spent tens of thousands of his own dollars on a bigger, flashier NWA title belt. But Flair is nowhere near the most popular wrestler now working—you can't leave the Wal-Mart without spotting "Austin 3:16," T-shirted homage to Steve Austin, the current king of the WWF ropes. And Flair hasn't promoted his own candidacy in the Time poll whatsoever, at least not publicly. So who's behind it? Conspiracy buffs could point out that Flair's current employer, WCW, is a subsidiary of Time-Warner, just like the magazine.

But spokespeople for the conglomerate insist that Time isn't on his side. Castro attributes Flair's incredible showing to all sorts of unfair lobbying on his behalf from the people who run wrestling fans' Web sites, many of which include links to the Time.com polling page and pleas to vote early and often. Some "robots"—Internet parlance for software programs that can spam out responses to polls—have also skewed the voting, according to the pollsters.

To prove how unjazzed they are by the partial returns, Time.com editors recently decided to institute some campaign reform. A disclaimer appeared on the Web site, insinuating that foolishness will no longer be tolerated from the masses: "Whimsical candidates and others who do not fall within the spirit of the title will not be counted." Much harsher amendments are imminent, Castro promises. And when they're put in place, the wrestler's poll position will suffer a fatal wound.

"Ric Flair is about to go down," she says.

If it's any consolation to Flair's fans: "Jesus is going down, too," says Castro. Turns out His followers have also been caught stuffing the ballot box. The National Service Committee for Catholic Charismatic Renewal, a clearinghouse for god-squadders in the U.K., threw the following into this month's Internet newsletter: "Vote for Jesus! Time Magazine is currently running a poll to find the Man or Woman of the Century and the results will be published at the end of 1999. Christians are being urged to vote for Jesus Christ so that He will be proclaimed Man of the Century through the pages of Time!" Similar examples from around the globe abound. No wonder He got so many votes (about 890,000 as of Monday).

A vote for Jesus, like one for Flair, violates "the spirit of the title," say officials at Time.com.

Castro won't say exactly when the two front-runners will be yanked from the poll. Her staff is now plotting an exit strategy, preparing to be flooded by angry e-mails and attempted hacking of the site once the double DQ of Flair and Jesus becomes official.

"We want to keep [the poll] as open as possible, but we will ask people to take the poll slightly more seriously," she says. "But lately, we've been pretty busy with Kosovo."

With the removal of the Nature Boy and Jesus and all the candidates destined to be deemed whimsical or otherwise unfit to wear the Time crown, nothing short of a massive ground invasion will keep Hitler from taking the title.

—Dave McKenna"

[The Baltimore Staircase]

Is Jesus just man of the century, every century? Because that dude did nothing of note in the 20th century. Lazy if anything.

[hitch]

I'm not sure the screw job was a big deal at the time. The 'heat' came from the aftermath e.g what WWE did with it. If they had made no mention of it then it would have become one those 'was it or wasn't it?' things. Some people would have thought it was a work, others a shoot. But generally we'd have all moved on thinking it was a strange ending...but oh well.

Of course the smart fans with access to online and the observer and all that would be clued up but in 1997 I'm not sure how large a section that was.

No, the heat was created by what WWE did afterwards. It's one of those moments where you artificially create the bang after the explosion. The heat created by the screw job was all generated as of the night after and henceforth. The documentary is just an interesting contextualiser. The screw job itself has never been the most interesting thing about the screw job story - and never has.

[Crimson]

Didn't Time pull something similar on Mic Foley when he was suppose to be up for Man of the Year?

[Free Hat]

Mar 16, 2013 7:11:19 GMT -5 RowdyRobbyPiper said:

www.filibustercartoons.com/greatest%20Canadians.htm

This was a 2004 blog commenting on CBC's Greatest Canadians series. The voting was done by CBC viewers and I believe, the Top Ten were the basis of the series as it aired. Nonetheless, the remaining 90 placements were revealed. Bret came in at number 39. No, he wasn't close to the top, but he was well ahead of a number of people that I figured would have placed higher. He placed higher than, Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell, Margaret Atwood, Glenn Gould, Billy Bishop, Gordie Howe, Henry Morgentaler, John Diefenbaker and McKenzie King. I would expect a wrestler scoring a similar (or even higher ranking) in a similar poll in Japan or Mexico. Yet Bret's comparatively high score speaks to the level of his fame in Canada. If the same poll in the US was done, I don't think any American pro wrestler wold come within sniffing distance of the top 100.

Interesting analysis in that blog. He's right that the lack of promotion in Quebec skewed the results significantly. Not to get political, but I honestly would not be surprised if it was a deliberate attempt to keep Levesque out of the top ten.

Incidentally, when they did the second round of voting with Canadian celebrities making the cases for each of the top ten, it was Bret who advocated for Don Cherry. Funny thing is, even Cherry admitted he didn't belong that high up.

[hitch]

I love that the editor of Time magazine said he'd never heard of Ric Flair at that point
#householdnamenot