Death/Return of Superman vs. Batman: Knightfall

[KingPopper]

Maximum Carnage?

[Deleted]

Apr 21, 2013 15:20:18 GMT -5 Koda, Master Crunchyroller said:

Both are a wash for me since they are essentially the same story, at least in basic plot structure. Both have the hero getting taken out by a powerful new foe and both are replaced for a period of time by new fill ins and then they come back and finish things.

Yup. Both these stories, for me, were the beginning of the end of my love of traditional superhero books. Nothing would ever REALLY happen/change so it wasn't for me anymore.

It did push me to find a ton of great creator owned books that blow anything the big 2 do out the damn water.

[Sephiroth]

Actually my favorite part of Knightfall was when Commissioner Gordon's wife actually tries to reassure him over Batman's fate because she see's how worried he is, and how Knightwing was actually surprised that Bruce didn't as him to fill in while he recovered. Kind of showed how important Batman is to so many people.

On the same note, I actually like how Project Cadmus tried to clone Superman. Kind of drove home that Supes is so important to the whole world that even a group that had been his enemies wanted to try to bring him back.

[Glitch]

Knightfall. It made sense that Bruce would eventually recover from his broken back. Superman returning from the dead cheapened the whole thing by having him not really being dead to begin with. Superman never really died if you think about it.

[CMWaters]

Apr 21, 2013 20:23:19 GMT -5 Glitch said:

Knightfall. It made sense that Bruce would eventually recover from his broken back. Superman returning from the dead cheapened the whole thing by having him not really being dead to begin with. Superman never really died if you think about it.

"You see, Superman was only MOSTLY dead. There's a difference between mostly dead and all dead."

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

Apr 21, 2013 19:15:12 GMT -5 KingPopper said:

Maximum Carnage?

*points* there's the door, use it.

[wildojinx]

Where's the option for the Infinity Gauntlet?

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

Apr 21, 2013 21:34:59 GMT -5 wildojinx said:

Where's the option for the Infinity Gauntlet?

well I guess it does have pretty much every Marvel hero dying a horrible death only for it to be undone at the end, so yeah I guess it could be included.

[AFN: Judge Shred]

I love how when this board is presented with options in an either/or format all we can do is ask where other options are.

[Deleted]

If we can vote for other story lines, then I'm going Marvel's Acts of Vengeance .

You had the most meta storyline ever: A bunch of villains get together and decide to pit their super hero enemies against different villains.

Highlights include every jobber in the Marvel Universe trying to kill Spider-Man, who was at the center of the storyline, including the Trapster, Dragon-Man, Titania, and Graviton, leading to Spider-Man being possessed by Captain Marvel and the creation of the Tri-Sentinel. There was a moment where Spider-Man punched the Mr. Fix-It version of the Grey Hulk into Space and had to fly out there and rescue him from the rising sun.

Dr. Doom was a freakin' Doombot the whole time . The best part was when Doom and Iron Man interacted. Doom (really the Doom-bot) raided Stark's compound with his forces and kidnapped Stark. During the kidnapping, Doom commented on a painting Tony had saying some thing like, "Ah I have three of those. I had one destroyed." Tony responded with "Why in the Devil would you do that?" to which Doom responded, "It displeased me..."

[Dr. T is an alien]

I liked both, but I am fonder of Knightfall. Bane was great, I actually liked AzBat as a villain, and the emotions of betrayal felt by Nightwing, Robin, and Gordon all drove home the fact that Bruce Wayne still has major problems even attempting to be a normal person after all of these years. The aftermath gave us our first bout of Dick Grayson as Batman and I loved that.

That is not to say that I did not love a lot of things about Death and Return of Superman. The battle with Doomsday was as epic as it was intended to be, especially considering that Doomsday dispatched a few heavy hitters easily along the way (Guy Gardner took a beating and Supergirl was in the fight for all of 3 panels or so). I did like the initial introduction of the Supermen, always liked Superboy, enjoyed The Last Son of Krypton/Eradicator, liked the overall idea of the story, and liked the last conflict between Cyborg and Eradicator (one was based on Kryptonian technology for fostering a young life and one was a Kryptonian weapon of mass destruction. The outcome was obvious), and the basic premise of Doomsday.

What I did not like was the filler. I hated the whole story involving White Rabbit (she was nowhere near as fun as Marvel's character of the same name). The lawsuit over the copyright of the name Superman was annoying. The battle at the ruins of West Coast City was way too long and drawn out.

Fun factoid: I based a villain in my D&D campaign on Doomsday. He was a kobold thief that the party first encountered trying to set a trap on the road. They killed him by startling him and causing him to set off his own trap on himself. The party got a good laugh because they thought that he was just a little comic relief that I introduced. They also think that I have a real hatred for kobolds because I keep setting it up where they encounter a lone kobold that is trying to attack them by himself, allowing them to kill kobolds in all sorts of new and interesting ways. What they don't realize is that all of the incidents that they are having involve the same kobold who really now has it out for them and is now immune to the following things:

1) Neck breaking
2) Steel cutting edges
3) Blunt steel weapons (warhammers)
4) Fire
5) Ice
6) Necromancy spells that drain HP
7) Lightning
8) Suffocation
9) Falling from great heights
10) Dynamite
11) Drowning

I don't know how many more interesting ways they can finish him off. They think that the kobolds are getting progressively tougher as they level but just don't realize that the guy is immune to most of the attacks that they use against him now. They are in for a rude awakening when they run out of creative ways to kill little lizard men.

[Bang Bang Bart]

Apr 21, 2013 22:04:33 GMT -5 @irontyger said:

If we can vote for other story lines, then I'm going Marvel's Acts of Vengeance .

You had the most meta storyline ever: A bunch of villains get together and decide to pit their super hero enemies against different villains.

Highlights include every jobber in the Marvel Universe trying to kill Spider-Man, who was at the center of the storyline, including the Trapster, Dragon-Man, Titania, and Graviton, leading to Spider-Man being possessed by Captain Marvel and the creation of the Tri-Sentinel. There was a moment where Spider-Man punched the Mr. Fix-It version of the Grey Hulk into Space and had to fly out there and rescue him from the rising sun.

Dr. Doom was a freakin' Doombot the whole time . The best part was when Doom and Iron Man interacted. Doom (really the Doom-bot) raided Stark's compound with his forces and kidnapped Stark. During the kidnapping, Doom commented on a painting Tony had saying some thing like, "Ah I have three of those. I had one destroyed." Tony responded with "Why in the Devil would you do that?" to which Doom responded, "It displeased me..."

My personal favorite highlight of the story was Magneto getting one over Red Skull, and subsequently trapping him in a dark hole with no food or anything.

[Goldenbane]

Apr 21, 2013 23:21:43 GMT -5 Dr. T is an alien said:

I liked both, but I am fonder of Knightfall. Bane was great, I actually liked AzBat as a villain, and the emotions of betrayal felt by Nightwing, Robin, and Gordon all drove home the fact that Bruce Wayne still has major problems even attempting to be a normal person after all of these years. The aftermath gave us our first bout of Dick Grayson as Batman and I loved that.

That is not to say that I did not love a lot of things about Death and Return of Superman. The battle with Doomsday was as epic as it was intended to be, especially considering that Doomsday dispatched a few heavy hitters easily along the way (Guy Gardner took a beating and Supergirl was in the fight for all of 3 panels or so). I did like the initial introduction of the Supermen, always liked Superboy, enjoyed The Last Son of Krypton/Eradicator, liked the overall idea of the story, and liked the last conflict between Cyborg and Eradicator (one was based on Kryptonian technology for fostering a young life and one was a Kryptonian weapon of mass destruction. The outcome was obvious), and the basic premise of Doomsday.

What I did not like was the filler. I hated the whole story involving White Rabbit (she was nowhere near as fun as Marvel's character of the same name). The lawsuit over the copyright of the name Superman was annoying. The battle at the ruins of West Coast City was way too long and drawn out.

Fun factoid: I based a villain in my D&D campaign on Doomsday. He was a kobold thief that the party first encountered trying to set a trap on the road. They killed him by startling him and causing him to set off his own trap on himself. The party got a good laugh because they thought that he was just a little comic relief that I introduced. They also think that I have a real hatred for kobolds because I keep setting it up where they encounter a lone kobold that is trying to attack them by himself, allowing them to kill kobolds in all sorts of new and interesting ways. What they don't realize is that all of the incidents that they are having involve the same kobold who really now has it out for them and is now immune to the following things:

1) Neck breaking
2) Steel cutting edges
3) Blunt steel weapons (warhammers)
4) Fire
5) Ice
6) Necromancy spells that drain HP
7) Lightning
8) Suffocation
9) Falling from great heights
10) Dynamite
11) Drowning

I don't know how many more interesting ways they can finish him off. They think that the kobolds are getting progressively tougher as they level but just don't realize that the guy is immune to most of the attacks that they use against him now. They are in for a rude awakening when they run out of creative ways to kill little lizard men.

What is it with some DMs and their obsession with making the Kobold a TPK god? I've heard so many stories of DM's killing entire parties of very high level PCs with Kobolds.

[Dr. T is an alien]

Apr 22, 2013 2:18:04 GMT -5 Goldenbane said:

Apr 21, 2013 23:21:43 GMT -5 Dr. T is an alien said:

I liked both, but I am fonder of Knightfall. Bane was great, I actually liked AzBat as a villain, and the emotions of betrayal felt by Nightwing, Robin, and Gordon all drove home the fact that Bruce Wayne still has major problems even attempting to be a normal person after all of these years. The aftermath gave us our first bout of Dick Grayson as Batman and I loved that.

That is not to say that I did not love a lot of things about Death and Return of Superman. The battle with Doomsday was as epic as it was intended to be, especially considering that Doomsday dispatched a few heavy hitters easily along the way (Guy Gardner took a beating and Supergirl was in the fight for all of 3 panels or so). I did like the initial introduction of the Supermen, always liked Superboy, enjoyed The Last Son of Krypton/Eradicator, liked the overall idea of the story, and liked the last conflict between Cyborg and Eradicator (one was based on Kryptonian technology for fostering a young life and one was a Kryptonian weapon of mass destruction. The outcome was obvious), and the basic premise of Doomsday.

What I did not like was the filler. I hated the whole story involving White Rabbit (she was nowhere near as fun as Marvel's character of the same name). The lawsuit over the copyright of the name Superman was annoying. The battle at the ruins of West Coast City was way too long and drawn out.

Fun factoid: I based a villain in my D&D campaign on Doomsday. He was a kobold thief that the party first encountered trying to set a trap on the road. They killed him by startling him and causing him to set off his own trap on himself. The party got a good laugh because they thought that he was just a little comic relief that I introduced. They also think that I have a real hatred for kobolds because I keep setting it up where they encounter a lone kobold that is trying to attack them by himself, allowing them to kill kobolds in all sorts of new and interesting ways. What they don't realize is that all of the incidents that they are having involve the same kobold who really now has it out for them and is now immune to the following things:

1) Neck breaking
2) Steel cutting edges
3) Blunt steel weapons (warhammers)
4) Fire
5) Ice
6) Necromancy spells that drain HP
7) Lightning
8) Suffocation
9) Falling from great heights
10) Dynamite
11) Drowning

I don't know how many more interesting ways they can finish him off. They think that the kobolds are getting progressively tougher as they level but just don't realize that the guy is immune to most of the attacks that they use against him now. They are in for a rude awakening when they run out of creative ways to kill little lizard men.

What is it with some DMs and their obsession with making the Kobold a TPK god? I've heard so many stories of DM's killing entire parties of very high level PCs with Kobolds.

I can't speak for all DMs, but I think that I can think of a few reasons:

1) Casual D&D players think of them as mostly harmless pests. They never see kobolds as threats despite their tendencies to keep even the local goblin population managable. As a result, they are good for a nasty surprise.

2) Dragon Magazine kind of started that by making a few kobolds that were buffed up in silly ways for poops and giggles (I am thinking about the AD&D character Idi Amin that they introduced as a joke about the real Amin. The character had a nearly impenetrable armor that was formed entirely of a ridiculous amount of medals, pins, and jewelry).

3) If you actually take the time to get to know their background one tends to fall in love with kobolds as a race of characters. They (rightfully) believe that they are descended from dragons, worship even good dragons, and actually have a legitimate reason to hate their mortal enemies, the gnomes. They insist on letting the realities of the world remove weak members of their clans from their numbers. They strive to reawaken their dragon blood (some do become more dragon-like) and trap-making and sorcery are their versions of art. They are even harder workers than dwarves when it comes to mining. They just are an interesting race.

[Legion]

Apr 21, 2013 21:34:59 GMT -5 wildojinx said:

Where's the option for the Infinity Gauntlet?

IMO thats the best crossover story ever told. However it came out in 1991, so before these stories by quite a bit.

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

Apr 22, 2013 2:18:04 GMT -5 Goldenbane said:

Apr 21, 2013 23:21:43 GMT -5 Dr. T is an alien said:

I liked both, but I am fonder of Knightfall. Bane was great, I actually liked AzBat as a villain, and the emotions of betrayal felt by Nightwing, Robin, and Gordon all drove home the fact that Bruce Wayne still has major problems even attempting to be a normal person after all of these years. The aftermath gave us our first bout of Dick Grayson as Batman and I loved that.

That is not to say that I did not love a lot of things about Death and Return of Superman. The battle with Doomsday was as epic as it was intended to be, especially considering that Doomsday dispatched a few heavy hitters easily along the way (Guy Gardner took a beating and Supergirl was in the fight for all of 3 panels or so). I did like the initial introduction of the Supermen, always liked Superboy, enjoyed The Last Son of Krypton/Eradicator, liked the overall idea of the story, and liked the last conflict between Cyborg and Eradicator (one was based on Kryptonian technology for fostering a young life and one was a Kryptonian weapon of mass destruction. The outcome was obvious), and the basic premise of Doomsday.

What I did not like was the filler. I hated the whole story involving White Rabbit (she was nowhere near as fun as Marvel's character of the same name). The lawsuit over the copyright of the name Superman was annoying. The battle at the ruins of West Coast City was way too long and drawn out.

Fun factoid: I based a villain in my D&D campaign on Doomsday. He was a kobold thief that the party first encountered trying to set a trap on the road. They killed him by startling him and causing him to set off his own trap on himself. The party got a good laugh because they thought that he was just a little comic relief that I introduced. They also think that I have a real hatred for kobolds because I keep setting it up where they encounter a lone kobold that is trying to attack them by himself, allowing them to kill kobolds in all sorts of new and interesting ways. What they don't realize is that all of the incidents that they are having involve the same kobold who really now has it out for them and is now immune to the following things:

1) Neck breaking
2) Steel cutting edges
3) Blunt steel weapons (warhammers)
4) Fire
5) Ice
6) Necromancy spells that drain HP
7) Lightning
8) Suffocation
9) Falling from great heights
10) Dynamite
11) Drowning

I don't know how many more interesting ways they can finish him off. They think that the kobolds are getting progressively tougher as they level but just don't realize that the guy is immune to most of the attacks that they use against him now. They are in for a rude awakening when they run out of creative ways to kill little lizard men.

What is it with some DMs and their obsession with making the Kobold a TPK god? I've heard so many stories of DM's killing entire parties of very high level PCs with Kobolds.

because it's funny as hell.