nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,732
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Post by nisidhe on May 19, 2013 11:54:26 GMT -5
I know this decade has been about disguising the fact that WWE is wrestling, but that's what people pay to see. Cesaro is a good wrestler that can do it all and then some. He's as good as Bryan but unlike him, they won't change his character. They only keep adding to his Swiss gimmick. Foreign heels haven't got heat since who? Yokozuna? He's also not involved in any storylines. They're not letting him do anything that would make the crowd want to boo him other than making him lose all the time. Swagger was getting a bit of heat in the Del Rio feud. Cesaro was doing his liking America but not Americans routine at the time. Why not involve the two? I think Cesaro's conundrum underscores what's wrong with WWE Creative and "the WWE system." Here's a wrestler on Angle levels of both in-ring ability and mic skills, but for whom Creative can't create a persona anywhere as good or as potentially over as the personae he's created for himself. WWE is so hellbent on keeping trademarks on the images, likenesses, etc. of their Superstars that they're shooting themselves in order to avoid having to allow their talent to sell themselves. This is the pickle Zack Ryder finds himself in as well; he generated his own buzz on the Internet, away from WWE, only to have it misused by WWE and then discarded. El Generico is another talent that they're going to misuse to the nth degree. These guys are of interest to fans for the very things that WWE has or will strip from them. If WWE wants control over its product to that extent, why bother shopping the indies in the first place when they can create their own Superstars with the personae that WWE picks out for them. That's where Generic Wrestlers come from: from promotions without the confidence in the talents of their wrestlers to be themselves (or a persona of the wrestler's choosing) and to make money that way. What the hell would Creative do with someone like Randy Savage? We saw what they tried with Steve Austin before he morphed into Stone Cold. If it isn't Creative who's responsible for the characterization, then it's an issue with WWE itself and its insistence on trademarking likenesses, names, etc. that's hobbling the character creation process for its Superstars. Were I a wrestler, I would not want to give the persona I used for the ten years I'd spent in the indies to WWE knowing that I could be released next year and never be able to use that character again. Moreover, I would think that having to create a new character from scratch after using mine for that long would be a tedious process for a result that wouldn't inspire the same level of passion and enthusiasm.
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Post by MichaelMartini on May 19, 2013 12:25:02 GMT -5
If a talent can come up with a persona that connects with the crowd they should let them. But it's like the music industry. They don't want to sign anyone with too much talent because they'll want more money when contracts come up. So they manufacture stars in a rigidly controlled environment and can replace them whenever they want. Pop stars are overproduced in the studio and lip synch at live concerts. Wrestlers aren't draws anymore. They rely on the production (like shaking the camera during Shield attacks instead of letting their moves impress)to get them over. They're characters on a kids tv show. It's such a backwards way of thinking. There's not even competition that they have to worry about anymore so who cares if they want to use their gimmick somewhere else.
At this point you can't even use Bret's scale because talking or wrestling ability doesn't even matter anymore. Only the look and ability to recite lines.
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trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,609
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Post by trollrogue on May 19, 2013 12:37:49 GMT -5
I think WWE's been very careful of how they're pushing Cesaro. There are multiple pratfalls associated with giving Cesaro a gimmick that he will excel at and get massively over with the fans with. In order of importance to the "officials" here is what I think is keeping Cesaro in the quagmire of circular booking:
1) Thou shalt push no others before John Cena (or The Shield if it's a 6-man tag) 2) Still just a little past his first year on the main TV roster (AKA most wrestlers will think he hasn't 'paid his dues' enough yet to start pinning the likes of Randy Orton or The Rock clean) 3) His offense is very technical. Like Chris Benoit. 4) Instead of winning matches, Cesaro can get himself over using crazy spots like the giant swing into the barricade he gave Miz on Main Event, or that standing turnbuckle superplex where he deadlifts the opponent from outside of the ring. Also his European Uppercuts are a thang of beauty! His moves look like they hurt the face-of-the-week he's fighting, so the crowd will react accordingly and give him the most heel heat when he hits those spots. Doesn't really matter what his gimmick is once the bell rings, people know that he is gonna be 'game' as Michael Cole would say. 5) Like Drew MacIntyre, Cesaro dared to cross Teddy Long (stole Aksana then besmirched her when Teddy was still clearly in lust with her) and anybody that does that winds up as a jobber to the stars when alls said and done. Don't mess with the Mack Militant, playaz
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on May 19, 2013 13:06:51 GMT -5
You guys always go back to the "technical wrestling" aspect, as if that's all indy fans like and that's all indy wrestlers do, like they don't interact with the crowd whatsoever. That is untrue. I'm talking about personality. The entrance, the facial expressions, the taunts, the antics in the ring, the pacing, all of it. It's obvious that they're telling him how to walk to the ring, when to taunt and what taunt to do, how to structure his matches, his whole demeanor, and he's just this blank slate by a disparate group of creative types all trying to please one head writer who's trying to please Stephanie who's trying to please the Triple H and Kevin Dunn and Vince McMahon and whoever else. It's all so controlled, micro-managed, and constantly messed with, and it just comes out this bland mash. His character has been garbage with a few exceptions, but I'm tellin ya, it's not his fault. He's a charismatic, unique guy, but he's been through the ringer. So when he has total control over his character and a small audience he's charismatic. Okay. But the fact is WWE audiences have a lot more people and a lot bigger cross section of people in the audience. You ever watch The Blues Brothers? They're good at the style of music they play. But they end up at a country and western/redneck bar and have to be afraid for their lives. I find your brain fascinating. Somehow relating presentation and reception of a real life human being to a scripted story in a movie. It's apples and oranges. If Blues Brothers was real, and those people in the bar not ACTORS, then ya, you'd have a point. But it's not. Cesaro is simply presented poorly and performs in front of an actual audience. The Blues Brothers are fake. The rednecks are written to reject them. And the overall WWE audience hasn't been given reason to care yet. Cesaro's in his 'Hunter Hearst Helmsley' stage in WWE. That being a good hand that no one really gives a shit about yet because he's not being himself and not being promoted to suit his strengths. Cesaro hasn't been given anything to really work with (or a chance to truly fail or succeed on his own merits), and the stop/start pushes and two minute squashes aren't helping. If Steve Austin was never allowed to be himself as Stone Cold in favor of Ringmaster, or Rocky Maivia never was able to be given the platform to be The Rock, would that be their faults, or WWE's? WWE are the promoters, after all. And you have to promote first to determine whether something works or not. They need to find his strengths, find a character that fits him, let him go on a win streak and beat actual stars (like they did with Tensai of all people), then see if he sinks or swims. As it is, we'll never know, because he's handcuffed, and weights are tied to his ankles. Hard to swim on your own merits when you're being handicapped or derailed. You can't promote a guy as putting the "W" back in WWE, when he loses a "W" match in two minutes the next week. It's stupid. And it's WWE's fault. No one can say Cesaro's a failure until he's given the same strong booking and stubborn effort others have been given. That's really all there is to it. And if they do? And if he does fail? Well, you move on. Otherwise you're just sabotaging a guy (and others like him) for no reason. You don't get the Nobel Prize for intended chemistry. You have to try and make it work.
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Post by Straight Edge Scrotum on May 19, 2013 14:24:50 GMT -5
I've heard the argument that indy wrestlers are shopped because they've gotten over with the crowd and he WWE would be right to let them play their own characters on the big stage. But what if that isn't the basis on why they were picked up in the first place?
I think the WWE views its wrestlers more as actors than anything. Perhaps when they sign talented guys from the indys, it's not because they want 'El Generico' or 'Claudio Castagnoli(sp)' but rather the person behind the gimmick, who has proven themselves able to get said gimmick over. They don't want El Generico, they want the guy under the mask - who was able to play the character well enough to get over big - to come and play a DIFFERENT character in the hopes he would get that character over big as well.
I think it's the same as Marvel Comics hiring Patrick Stewart to be Professor X. He did great work in other projects and was a well known name when they signed him, but that doesn't mean they want him to come in and play Captain Picard..they want him to play Professor X and get that character 'over' for the role. The WWE does the same thing, I think. It's just that when someone is signed (take Generico for example) the fans automatically think 'Sweet, Generico is going to be on RAW' and when they take a different route, then comes the disappointment.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on May 19, 2013 14:32:54 GMT -5
I've heard the argument that indy wrestlers are shopped because they've gotten over with the crowd and he WWE would be right to let them play their own characters on the big stage. But what if that isn't the basis on why they were picked up in the first place?
I think the WWE views its wrestlers more as actors than anything. Perhaps when they sign talented guys from the indys, it's not because they want 'El Generico' or 'Claudio Castagnoli(sp)' but rather the person behind the gimmick, who has proven themselves able to get said gimmick over. They don't want El Generico, they want the guy under the mask - who was able to play the character well enough to get over big - to come and play a DIFFERENT character in the hopes he would get that character over big as well.
I think it's the same as Marvel Comics hiring Patrick Stewart to be Professor X. He did great work in other projects and was a well known name when they signed him, but that doesn't mean they want him to come in and play Captain Picard..they want him to play Professor X and get that character 'over' for the role. The WWE does the same thing, I think. It's just that when someone is signed (take Generico for example) the fans automatically think 'Sweet, Generico is going to be on RAW' and when they take a different route, then comes the disappointment. Usually I don't agree with you, but that's some pretty insightful stuff right there.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on May 19, 2013 14:33:20 GMT -5
I've heard the argument that indy wrestlers are shopped because they've gotten over with the crowd and he WWE would be right to let them play their own characters on the big stage. But what if that isn't the basis on why they were picked up in the first place?
I think the WWE views its wrestlers more as actors than anything. Perhaps when they sign talented guys from the indys, it's not because they want 'El Generico' or 'Claudio Castagnoli(sp)' but rather the person behind the gimmick, who has proven themselves able to get said gimmick over. They don't want El Generico, they want the guy under the mask - who was able to play the character well enough to get over big - to come and play a DIFFERENT character in the hopes he would get that character over big as well.
I think it's the same as Marvel Comics hiring Patrick Stewart to be Professor X. He did great work in other projects and was a well known name when they signed him, but that doesn't mean they want him to come in and play Captain Picard..they want him to play Professor X and get that character 'over' for the role. The WWE does the same thing, I think. It's just that when someone is signed (take Generico for example) the fans automatically think 'Sweet, Generico is going to be on RAW' and when they take a different route, then comes the disappointment. On the other hand, CM Punk.
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Post by Hit Girl on May 19, 2013 14:48:51 GMT -5
There's no point hiring a talented performer if when they get to WWE, they are given a rubbish character that cannot possibly get over. Now it could very well be that WWE is really enthusiastic about getting their bizarre pro America/anti-American/Swiss rugby player character over, but if it doesn't, it's not the performer's fault.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on May 19, 2013 15:09:16 GMT -5
I've heard the argument that indy wrestlers are shopped because they've gotten over with the crowd and he WWE would be right to let them play their own characters on the big stage. But what if that isn't the basis on why they were picked up in the first place?
I think the WWE views its wrestlers more as actors than anything. Perhaps when they sign talented guys from the indys, it's not because they want 'El Generico' or 'Claudio Castagnoli(sp)' but rather the person behind the gimmick, who has proven themselves able to get said gimmick over. They don't want El Generico, they want the guy under the mask - who was able to play the character well enough to get over big - to come and play a DIFFERENT character in the hopes he would get that character over big as well.
I think it's the same as Marvel Comics hiring Patrick Stewart to be Professor X. He did great work in other projects and was a well known name when they signed him, but that doesn't mean they want him to come in and play Captain Picard..they want him to play Professor X and get that character 'over' for the role. The WWE does the same thing, I think. It's just that when someone is signed (take Generico for example) the fans automatically think 'Sweet, Generico is going to be on RAW' and when they take a different route, then comes the disappointment. I think you give WWE too much credit. I think they sign guys and create their own names and gimmicks, because they honestly believe in their own vision first and foremost, and want to own the names (names that unfortunately lack any true marquee value, thus negating why they'd even need to copyright them in the first place. I mean, Michael McGillicutty is never becoming famous and transcending WWE with that name. If you're going to own something, why not register something worth registering?). I think its more out of arrogance, rather than belief in a certain act's ability to transcend former roles. Vince has too great a history of squandering ideas that he didn't personally come up with after all. That said, as much as I do like your Patrick Stewart analogy, its really not the same, because one is one movie, and the other is another that bears no similarity to the former. ROH or whatever is just a different version of the exact same medium. If wrestlers are commodities, why would you disregard an act that has gotten over if you acquire them? Wouldn't it be safer and better business to market that acquired property, and raise its stock (and already in-built appeal to a decent-sized audience) rather than starting from scratch? If Coca Cola buys Dr. Pepper, do they change the name to something else (and something possibly stupid), and risk it failing because you've shattered previous (albeit smaller) brand recognition? Isn't it smarter to just use that recognition to build Dr. Pepper into something better and farther reaching with your unlimited resources? How it it sound business to start over with things that already work? I mean, it is possible it *could* be bigger with a complete re-imagining and change, but the risk far outweighs the reward.
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SAJ Forth
Wade Wilson
Jamaican WCF Crazy!
Half Man-Half Amazing
Posts: 27,214
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Post by SAJ Forth on May 19, 2013 15:14:33 GMT -5
Given that he now looks like Jason Statham as a porn director, I hope they actually push him soon.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2013 15:15:55 GMT -5
Now I'm pumped for Dr. Pepper's Coke name. I'm guessing Sweetie Brownwater. And they'll take away 11 of the 23 flavors. It's too much, the audience can't process it! No carbonation either, too close to Mr. Pibb's gimmick.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on May 19, 2013 17:05:44 GMT -5
I've heard the argument that indy wrestlers are shopped because they've gotten over with the crowd and he WWE would be right to let them play their own characters on the big stage. But what if that isn't the basis on why they were picked up in the first place?
I think the WWE views its wrestlers more as actors than anything. Perhaps when they sign talented guys from the indys, it's not because they want 'El Generico' or 'Claudio Castagnoli(sp)' but rather the person behind the gimmick, who has proven themselves able to get said gimmick over. They don't want El Generico, they want the guy under the mask - who was able to play the character well enough to get over big - to come and play a DIFFERENT character in the hopes he would get that character over big as well.
I think it's the same as Marvel Comics hiring Patrick Stewart to be Professor X. He did great work in other projects and was a well known name when they signed him, but that doesn't mean they want him to come in and play Captain Picard..they want him to play Professor X and get that character 'over' for the role. The WWE does the same thing, I think. It's just that when someone is signed (take Generico for example) the fans automatically think 'Sweet, Generico is going to be on RAW' and when they take a different route, then comes the disappointment. On the other hand, CM Punk. while CM Punk has ended up playing the roles he played in the indies in WWE he didn't just come in playing the same character in WWE as he had when he left the indies.
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Post by Hit Girl on May 19, 2013 17:17:32 GMT -5
Punk had the benefit of WWE not changing his name to something nondescript and not being given a terrible character. In his case, WWE's lack of tinkering was a positive to him. If he had been given a new gimmick of a Belgian tennis player he would have been dead on arrival too and no doubt WWE (and the devil's advocate members of the IWC) would be wondering "hmmm, I wonder why Claude Maurice Pierre hasn't got over.....he must be boring"
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Post by MichaelMartini on May 19, 2013 17:22:06 GMT -5
On the other hand, CM Punk. while CM Punk has ended up playing the roles he played in the indies in WWE he didn't just come in playing the same character in WWE as he had when he left the indies. Right. He was a jobber that didn't talk. He only got over when he was allowed to do the same character and storylines from the indies. How is this any kind of point That Cesaro may be allowed the same freedoms in the future? Let's hope.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on May 19, 2013 17:40:17 GMT -5
I've heard the argument that indy wrestlers are shopped because they've gotten over with the crowd and he WWE would be right to let them play their own characters on the big stage. But what if that isn't the basis on why they were picked up in the first place?
I think the WWE views its wrestlers more as actors than anything. Perhaps when they sign talented guys from the indys, it's not because they want 'El Generico' or 'Claudio Castagnoli(sp)' but rather the person behind the gimmick, who has proven themselves able to get said gimmick over. They don't want El Generico, they want the guy under the mask - who was able to play the character well enough to get over big - to come and play a DIFFERENT character in the hopes he would get that character over big as well.
I think it's the same as Marvel Comics hiring Patrick Stewart to be Professor X. He did great work in other projects and was a well known name when they signed him, but that doesn't mean they want him to come in and play Captain Picard..they want him to play Professor X and get that character 'over' for the role. The WWE does the same thing, I think. It's just that when someone is signed (take Generico for example) the fans automatically think 'Sweet, Generico is going to be on RAW' and when they take a different route, then comes the disappointment. I think you give WWE too much credit. I think they sign guys and create their own names and gimmicks, because they honestly believe in their own vision first and foremost, and want to own the names (names that unfortunately lack any true marquee value, thus negating why they'd even need to copyright them in the first place. I mean, Michael McGillicutty is never becoming famous and transcending WWE with that name. If you're going to own something, why not register something worth registering?). I think its more out of arrogance, rather than belief in a certain act's ability to transcend former roles. Vince has too great a history of squandering ideas that he didn't personally come up with after all. That said, as much as I do like your Patrick Stewart analogy, its really not the same, because one is one movie, and the other is another that bears no similarity to the former. ROH or whatever is just a different version of the exact same medium. If wrestlers are commodities, why would you disregard an act that has gotten over if you acquire them? Wouldn't it be safer and better business to market that acquired property, and raise its stock (and already in-built appeal to a decent-sized audience) rather than starting from scratch? If Coca Cola buys Dr. Pepper, do they change the name to something else (and something possibly stupid), and risk it failing because you've shattered previous (albeit smaller) brand recognition? Isn't it smarter to just use that recognition to build Dr. Pepper into something better and farther reaching with your unlimited resources? How it it sound business to start over with things that already work? I mean, it is possible it *could* be bigger with a complete re-imagining and change, but the risk far outweighs the reward. you didn't like my Blues Brothers comparison, but he's a more reality based one. College football players get shifted to new roles when they become pros if they don't fit the prototypical requirements for the role. Running QBs can become recievers or running backs. Receivers that are to slow get shifted to tight end. Tackles with poor footwork become guards. Defensive ends that are to small get shifted to linebacker and undersized linebackers can become safeties.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on May 19, 2013 17:43:03 GMT -5
while CM Punk has ended up playing the roles he played in the indies in WWE he didn't just come in playing the same character in WWE as he had when he left the indies. Right. He was a jobber that didn't talk. He only got over when he was allowed to do the same character and storylines from the indies. How is this any kind of point That Cesaro may be allowed the same freedoms in the future? Let's hope. actually Punk talked early in WWECW, shutting down Shannon and he got over the New Blood(Breed?). And Punk got over as a face, when in fact he was playing the original summer of Punk character when he left RoH.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on May 19, 2013 18:01:18 GMT -5
I think you give WWE too much credit. I think they sign guys and create their own names and gimmicks, because they honestly believe in their own vision first and foremost, and want to own the names (names that unfortunately lack any true marquee value, thus negating why they'd even need to copyright them in the first place. I mean, Michael McGillicutty is never becoming famous and transcending WWE with that name. If you're going to own something, why not register something worth registering?). I think its more out of arrogance, rather than belief in a certain act's ability to transcend former roles. Vince has too great a history of squandering ideas that he didn't personally come up with after all. That said, as much as I do like your Patrick Stewart analogy, its really not the same, because one is one movie, and the other is another that bears no similarity to the former. ROH or whatever is just a different version of the exact same medium. If wrestlers are commodities, why would you disregard an act that has gotten over if you acquire them? Wouldn't it be safer and better business to market that acquired property, and raise its stock (and already in-built appeal to a decent-sized audience) rather than starting from scratch? If Coca Cola buys Dr. Pepper, do they change the name to something else (and something possibly stupid), and risk it failing because you've shattered previous (albeit smaller) brand recognition? Isn't it smarter to just use that recognition to build Dr. Pepper into something better and farther reaching with your unlimited resources? How it it sound business to start over with things that already work? I mean, it is possible it *could* be bigger with a complete re-imagining and change, but the risk far outweighs the reward. you didn't like my Blues Brothers comparison, but he's a more reality based one. College football players get shifted to new roles when they become pros if they don't fit the prototypical requirements for the role. Running QBs can become recievers or running backs. Receivers that are to slow get shifted to tight end. Tackles with poor footwork become guards. Defensive ends that are to small get shifted to linebacker and undersized linebackers can become safeties. I'd agree with you if WWE let Cesaro actually have the ball to see what he has or doesn't have. Your analogy was good, but I feel like its not applicable to Cesaro in that he hasn't truly been allowed to see where his strengths or weaknesses lie to then place him in that needed and appropriate role. They have not determined his true limits or shortcomings. They were fickle. They pulled him from the game early. You shift players when you know absolutely that they'd be better off in another position. And you only do that by letting them play. WWE has yet to let Cesaro truly show his stuff, and they have yet to push him in that all important sink-or-swim environment. If he fails, you justifiably put him somewhere you think he can be useful or cut your losses entirely. At this point, WWE is the equivalent of getting a high school Exam, only they let you you answer only one question, mark it wrong, and tell you that you fail.
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