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Post by Piccolo on Sept 29, 2013 14:06:26 GMT -5
Might want to try a different angle for this argument. Hometown pride and national pride are big reasons that people support male athletes too (for example, everyone in my town loves the Baltimore Ravens. Why? Well, because we're next to Baltimore. Has nothing to do with the team itself). Football is the top sport in America. We're talking about the lesser sports like female figure skating and gymnastics. Actually, we're talking about the role national or local pride plays in whether people watch a sport. You made an attempt to dismiss the interest people take in figure skating and gymnastics by saying it was driven by nationalism. I pointed out that this is hardly a common phenomenon to female sports, or to figure skating and gymnastics. (Or, for that matter, to female figure skating and gymnastics when contrasted with male figure skating and gymnastics.) That's why I say, it's better to take a different angle than to downplay nationalism as a valid reason for people to take interest. You're goring your own ox. There are better arguments supporting the notion that female sports are generally not as watched as male sports (the WNBA viewership contrast is a fairly good one), but "but people only care because of nationalism" doesn't wash. I think people watch figure skating and gymnastics for elegant technique and impressive athletic feats. When people are marveling over something a female gymnast did, it's more exciting if she's from your country, but it's exciting in general because it's a remarkable feat. So, yeah. People absolutely don't treat women's gymnastics or figure skating as a joke. The example you'll want to stick to, I think, is the basketball one. Gymnastics and figure skating undercut your argument. ETA: And I don't really think the argument about pro wrestling being a sport is particularly airtight, either, because you have to ignore the existence of grueling physical pursuits that are displayed for the enjoyment of the public without the element of competition, such as ballet. The argument that wrestling involves competition is moot because of the scripted nature. Competition is depicted, as it would be in a movie about sports, but a competition is not actually occurring. Pro wrestling is a physically demanding performance art, but it is not a sport.
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Magnus the Magnificent
King Koopa
didn't want one.
I could write a book about what you don't know!
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Sept 29, 2013 14:57:35 GMT -5
Professional Wrestling isn't a sport. Might have been in the very early stages, but it hasn't been for at least 100 years. Physical performance art, sure. Sport, no.
And Moolah was a terrible person if everything the article is true, most thing pointing towards yes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2013 16:02:23 GMT -5
Might want to try a different angle for this argument. Hometown pride and national pride are big reasons that people support male athletes too (for example, everyone in my town loves the Baltimore Ravens. Why? Well, because we're next to Baltimore. Has nothing to do with the team itself). Football is the top sport in America. We're talking about the lesser sports like female figure skating and gymnastics. They only get any kind of prominence during events like the Olympics. Hell, even women's soccer here gets any kind of attention during the World Cup and the Olympics for the same reason I stated. Look at the WNBA, it's been around for over 15 years and people never treat it with respect and it's supposed to be the top women's pro sports league in the country. A key variable in "how much respect does a league get" is the overall quality of the athletes. Bobby Hull brought instant respectability to the WHA when he was signed by the Jets, and that respectability resulted in the NHL absorbed four of their franchises when the league collapsed. And so, if you're going to look at the respect they get in the WNBA, you simply cannot compare "best female athletes" with "best female athletes" and assume they are equal because they both have "best" in their title. The WNBA champs would be a staggering underdog to the worst team in the ABA, yet the WNBA gets more prominence (can you name any ABA team without going to Wiki?) and draws bigger numbers (3x-4x, if a quick trip around google means anything). And that differential is attributable solely to the genders of the athletes in the leagues. So yeah, relative to raw talent level, female athletes are afforded staggering respect in North America.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Sept 29, 2013 21:53:05 GMT -5
While I understand what you are trying to say: People practice/train to become actors also. Stunt doubles in acting also requires constant physical activity that takes a toll on your body just like *ahem* "real" sports. Does that make stunt doubles athletes? People compete to get pushes/work just like people compete to get roster spots. This is a natural part of life in any industry, whether business, sports or acting. Actors aren't in grueling physical activity on a weekly basis. Stunt doubles aren't really in any sort of competition. While you can say wrestlers aren't either, but technically they are (even though it is scripted, it is still competition). And of course, but the point is, they are all involved in physical activity in which how good they are at it determines their success in their profession. I mean the only difference between wrestling and other sports is that what happens is predetermined. Whether or not it is predetermined or not does not make it any less of a sport, hence why it is called "sports entertainment". It's still a sport, but emphasis is more based on entertainment. It's not really hard to understand. You don't know a whole lot about the entertainment industry, do you?
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Post by Joe Neglia on Oct 1, 2013 2:38:32 GMT -5
Please stay on-topic.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Oct 1, 2013 3:32:52 GMT -5
Moolah is without a doubt one of my top 3 most legit loathed people attached to wrestling. Although it started with a bullshit title reign that consisted of a 20+ year reign that wasn't remotely realistic to what actually happened. I was very happy when WWE decided to continue the lineage of their butterfly title instead of a title that is sullied with the deceiving nature of Moolah and the stranglehold she had on making it seem like she almost single-handedly built women's wrestling, while so many others don't get an ounce of credit. I guess she's willing to destroy someone's livelihood in order to get a spot on a f***in' Saturday morning cartoon. Don't even get me started on her autobiography, filled with glaring errors. Then the first time I heard about her activities involving sexual exploitations of pimping out unsuspecting women (as well as having sex with them), and stealing money or practically getting women blackballed if they don't pay Moolah a percentage (sometimes as much as half or more of the payout, when most trainers and bookers took 25%, tops) from people she would later sabotage in other promotions and countries.
If I could remove anyone from the WWE HOF and blackball out of existence, it would be her. Truly a nasty human being. It's hard to imagine all the lives she hurt with her influence and wrath.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Oct 1, 2013 6:56:58 GMT -5
Moolah is without a doubt one of my top 3 most legit loathed people attached to wrestling. Although it started with a bullshit title reign that consisted of a 20+ year reign that wasn't remotely realistic to what actually happened. I was very happy when WWE decided to continue the lineage of their butterfly title instead of a title that is sullied with the deceiving nature of Moolah and the stranglehold she had on making it seem like she almost single-handedly built women's wrestling, while so many others don't get an ounce of credit. I guess she's willing to destroy someone's livelihood in order to get a spot on a f***in' Saturday morning cartoon. Don't even get me started on her autobiography, filled with glaring errors. Then the first time I heard about her activities involving sexual exploitations of pimping out unsuspecting women (as well as having sex with them), and stealing money or practically getting women blackballed if they don't pay Moolah a percentage (sometimes as much as half or more of the payout, when most trainers and bookers took 25%, tops) from people she would later sabotage in other promotions and countries. If I could remove anyone from the WWE HOF and blackball out of existence, it would be her. Truly a nasty human being. It's hard to imagine all the lives she hurt with her influence and wrath. And to make matters worse, she went to her grave knowing she's thought of as a wrestling legend by generations of fans and that someone that likes her now effectively controls the bulk of wrestling history so most people will never hear of her wrongdoings.
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Post by jason1980s on Oct 1, 2013 7:05:34 GMT -5
Of all topics a Vince shoot could cover perhaps Moolah would be the most interesting because it's something most wouldn't think to ask him yet something that he may know more than we think.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2013 10:56:22 GMT -5
He also knows more about Jimmy Snuka. It's a shady business, with shady characters.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2013 12:40:25 GMT -5
"Rodney Piper."
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Post by Joe Neglia on Oct 1, 2013 12:42:18 GMT -5
Her pal Mae Young wasn't exactly the epitome of a good, honest citizen either.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
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Post by chazraps on Oct 1, 2013 13:11:15 GMT -5
Her pal Mae Young wasn't exactly the epitome of a good, honest citizen either. Go on...
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Post by Joe Neglia on Oct 1, 2013 13:48:42 GMT -5
Her pal Mae Young wasn't exactly the epitome of a good, honest citizen either. Go on... In the late 40s and early 50s, she was arrested multiple times for robbery; she and her gal pals would find patsies, butter them up, take them to a hotel or out in the desert, beat the shit out of them and rob them.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
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Post by chazraps on Oct 1, 2013 16:12:22 GMT -5
In the late 40s and early 50s, she was arrested multiple times for robbery; she and her gal pals would find patsies, butter them up, take them to a hotel or out in the desert, beat the shit out of them and rob them. Well, that was a different time for America. At that particular juncture, you could major at Princeton and Yale in such a trade.
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Toxik916
Hank Scorpio
Sacramento Proud
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Post by Toxik916 on Oct 1, 2013 18:24:03 GMT -5
I always hate hearing bad things about Moolah and Mae. I know they probably did do a lot of the things people accused them of, but they came off as really likable people on WWE programing and Lipstick and Dynamite.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Oct 1, 2013 18:28:05 GMT -5
I always hate hearing bad things about Moolah and Mae. I know they probably did do a lot of the things people accused them of, but they came off as really likable people on WWE programing and Lipstick and Dynamite. Not all criminals and scum are completely void of personality.
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Glitch
King Koopa
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Watching you.
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Post by Glitch on Oct 1, 2013 18:44:58 GMT -5
So why did Vince have such an idolizing of her?
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Post by Joe Neglia on Oct 1, 2013 18:54:40 GMT -5
So why did Vince have such an idolizing of her? Not sure idolize is the right word. For a very long time, Moolah pretty much had the monopoly on female wrestlers. McMahon's dad and other promoters didn't keep their own roster of women wrestlers, they just called up a troupe when they needed one, and Moolah did her best to keep hers as the "only" one to go to. Even in the early expansion years, McMahon still had to rely on Moolah's group for the most part. Also, McMahon has shown time and again he's willing to work with anyone that can help make him money, regardless of their character, so long as they're, ahem, good for business. Snuka murdered a woman. Tyson was a convicted rapist. WWF tag team champion Dick Murdoch was a card-carrying KKK member. Truth said, wrestling is not a pretty business, and especially before the mainstreaming of the industry, people learned to just live with everyone else in the locker room being some sort of unsavory character, so long as they didn't bring it into the locker room.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Oct 2, 2013 5:35:12 GMT -5
I always hate hearing bad things about Moolah and Mae. I know they probably did do a lot of the things people accused them of, but they came off as really likable people on WWE programing and Lipstick and Dynamite. Real life villains tend to be more subtle than the villains of the wrestling ring, if they were thoroughly unlikeable people it would have made what they did to people far harder and they had a lot of time to perfect their act. What they did was a betrayal of trust, and to do that you need to get people's trust to begin with.
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Post by N E O G E O B O Y S on Oct 3, 2013 0:04:22 GMT -5
When it's not involving the Olympics, which is a byproduct of patriotism, yes. I'll concede that gymnastics and figure skating aren't featured much outside of International Competition, but women's tennis is year round big business and is at least just as popular as men's tennis I've never heard anyone try to argue that it's a joke. It's just odd to me. I think that tennis women is respected, but still, is nowhere as popular as the mens division All of my friends know djokovic, nadal or federer for their great playstyle, they know about sharapova becuase she was sexy I think that women wrestling will never be that succesfull, since womens will not do some stunts that mens do (not because they are not capable, but more than society will not view it as something good)
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