Black actors as reboots of white characters

[Deleted]

Oct 25, 2013 18:55:05 GMT -5 Legion said:

Oct 25, 2013 18:43:32 GMT -5 @personman01 said:

I never really watched that show, but isn't the "fish out of water" style family sit com pretty much done to death as it is for white characters already?

Or do you mean - like, an EXACT remake of the show? Because that would be bad with any race. Especially since the socio-economic issues revolving around that show are difficult to replicate. It'd pretty much have to take place in an alternate reality or with some swaps made out for it to happen in a different country. Though at that point you'll lose the US audience probably.

This is the point.

If we are to suggest that it is ok to make a white character black, then we have to suggest it is ok to make a black character white.

It doesnt matter if it works of what the issues are, the overarching point should be that white black characters should be just as ok as black white characters.

It's both or neither, not pick and choose.

Actually those things do matter. You can race-swap any character (black/white/latino/etc) as long as it. It is ok to make a black character white and a white character black, as long as it works. Thats kinda the whole point.

[Legion]

Oct 25, 2013 18:57:53 GMT -5 @personman01 said:

Oct 25, 2013 18:55:05 GMT -5 Legion said:

This is the point.

If we are to suggest that it is ok to make a white character black, then we have to suggest it is ok to make a black character white.

It doesnt matter if it works of what the issues are, the overarching point should be that white black characters should be just as ok as black white characters.

It's both or neither, not pick and choose.

Actually those things do matter. You can race-swap any character (black/white/latino/etc) as long as it. It is ok to make a black character white and a white character black, as long as it works. Thats kinda the whole point.

I agree, but the fact is it never works the other way.

A Fantastic Four with a black Johnny makes the news as a strike for.....equality? Civil rights?

But you announce a Luke Cage film featuring.....Batista as Cage and watch the hate and racism accusations pour in.

It's a double standard.

[wildojinx]

What about gender-swapping? It's not done that much, but what if for the next batman film you had a female joker and a male poison ivy?

[RadcapRadsley]

Unless it's like having a black or asian person play FDR or a white person playing Genghis Kahn or Malcolm X then who cares. There is nothing inheritently racially exclusive about a cop in a tv procedural or a superhero unless the Superhero was called Appalachia Man or Afroman or something specific that would disqualify someone of another race.

[FinalGwen]

Oct 25, 2013 12:51:22 GMT -5 67 more said:

No problem with fictional characters as long as it's historically possible for people to be of that race in their location or if their race is the point. (eg If there were Chinese people in a story about medieval Britain it would be hard to stomach unless it's about life as a Chinaman in medieval Britain. One part I hate about the BBC show Merlin is that Guinevere is played by a Asian lady and there are black knights, it makes no sense.)

If the character actually existed, there's no excuse.

I feel it's worth pointing out Merlin has WIZARDS DOING ACTUAL MAGIC AND DRAGONS. Black people have been present in England for most of its history. Magic and dragons do not exist. One is inherently more realistic than the other.

[Kevin Hamilton]

Oct 25, 2013 19:11:51 GMT -5 RadcapRadsley said:

a white person playing Genghis Kahn.

Ah, what a bad idea that was:

[Deleted]

It's one thing if it's a real person, but I just don't get the outrage when a fictional character is swapped from white to another race or even from male to female. If I was casting a show, I'd want the best actor possible. If I'm directing a new Punisher film or something, and Idris Elba is the best actor that's up for the role... He's going to be The Punisher. That simple. I wouldn't care if some fanboys feel like they can't back the character if he/she is another race, that's on them. I didn't have a problem relating or accepting characters when I was a kid because they were another race or even another species, so it shouldn't be an issue for grown men and women.

[Deleted]

Oct 25, 2013 19:00:46 GMT -5 Legion said:

Oct 25, 2013 18:57:53 GMT -5 @personman01 said:

Actually those things do matter. You can race-swap any character (black/white/latino/etc) as long as it. It is ok to make a black character white and a white character black, as long as it works. Thats kinda the whole point.

I agree, but the fact is it never works the other way.

A Fantastic Four with a black Johnny makes the news as a strike for.....equality? Civil rights?

But you announce a Luke Cage film featuring.....Batista as Cage and watch the hate and racism accusations pour in.

It's a double standard.

I feel like you're saying things that haven't happened to support your point.

I'd genuinely like to hear some real-world, fairly recent examples of this happening.

Beyond that, I'm talking about from a creative standpoint. Actors who got the chops to crush a role should get a shot at it, regardless of their ethnicity.

I think we're too precious with our fictional characters as it is.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Oct 25, 2013 19:00:46 GMT -5 Legion said:

Oct 25, 2013 18:57:53 GMT -5 @personman01 said:

Actually those things do matter. You can race-swap any character (black/white/latino/etc) as long as it. It is ok to make a black character white and a white character black, as long as it works. Thats kinda the whole point.

I agree, but the fact is it never works the other way.

A Fantastic Four with a black Johnny makes the news as a strike for.....equality? Civil rights?

But you announce a Luke Cage film featuring.....Batista as Cage and watch the hate and racism accusations pour in.

It's a double standard.

Combined with studios being hesitant over fresh IPs as of now, it also doesn't work the other way due to a long history of craptastic portrayals of minorities in various mediums. A white Luke Cage would understandably come across to people as something of a slap in the face today, and unless you were writing it as some sort of subersive comedy, it'd be far more egregious and deep reaching than the perceived slights to comic fans when a favorite character of theirs is turned into a minority.

And that's not to imply that comic fans don't like having their characters changed because they're inherently racist, because that's hogwash- most understandably do want to see their heroes in adaptions the way they remember them. But you do have to admit the ones that actually are racist kinda screw things up for everybody with their volume.

[Red Impact]

Oct 25, 2013 18:43:32 GMT -5 @personman01 said:

Oct 25, 2013 18:27:17 GMT -5 Legion said:

Race doesnt matter if the character is able to be the star. Unfortunately, when it coems to race swapping, the star is never the star.


Personally, I'm against it, just because it never works the other way round.

It's ok to make Jessica black in Murder she wrote, but make a white Jefferson's and watch the hate pile in.

Double standards will never get me on board

I never really watched that show, but isn't the "fish out of water" style family sit com pretty much done to death as it is for white characters already?

Or do you mean - like, an EXACT remake of the show? Because that would be bad with any race. Especially since the socio-economic issues revolving around that show are difficult to replicate. It'd pretty much have to take place in an alternate reality or with some swaps made out for it to happen in a different country. Though at that point you'll lose the US audience probably.

Yeah, unless you had it set in a universe where race relations were reversed, you couldn't really do a white Jeffersons anymore than you could do a black All in the Family (truthfully, you couldn't get away with All in the Family in this day and no matter who the lead was). Race relations and the characters reflecting the cultures of their world were the driving forces behind those shows.

If we're talking about a black sitcom that you might realistically be able to make about a white family, it'd probably more likely to be something like Family Matters, or recasting Tootie.

[Welfare Willis]

Oct 25, 2013 19:11:51 GMT -5 RadcapRadsley said:

Unless it's like having a black or asian person play FDR or a white person playing Genghis Kahn or Malcolm X then who cares. There is nothing inheritently racially exclusive about a cop in a tv procedural or a superhero unless the Superhero was called Appalachia Man or Afroman or something specific that would disqualify someone of another race.

Charles Nelson Rilley IS Malcolm X.

[Cyno]

I think All In The Family would still work fine in this day and age. Though it'd probably be on FX or Comedy Central instead of network television. Then again, Fox broadcasts Family Guy, so.

The thing to remember with Archie Bunker is that we were never laughing with him; we were laughing at him and his backwards ways. There's an important distinction there.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

And I'll agree, the easiest solution to this dilemma would be for studios to stop being so timid and seriously promote more original minority characters.

But in the meantime, here's another reason I usually have no issues with most race/sexuality/gender "lifts": let's say for example, Superman becomes black in his primary canon and over the years his two main skin colors drift in and out of popularity with artists, similar to Nick Fury as of today. Yet through all of that, his ideals, belief in Truth, Justice and the American Way, and usual approaches remain intact- which, IMO, would be the important thing. Were that the case, could fans really claim Supes's character had been truly harmed?

To me, a race or sexuality change wouldn't be as damaging to a character as if they suddenly went against all they represented personality wise. I'd be a lot more pissed if, say, Spider-Man was retconned in a future movie as a moronic bully who hated science than if he were written as relatively the same, only gay.

On the flipside, as for changing a minority character to a WASP, on paper...no, that wouldn't automatically be a bad thing so long as there were a decently written reason for it. But as I noted, due to the loooooooooong history of minority misrepresentation and exclusions over the decades, people's eyebrows would go up and skepticism would rise for good reason. Now hopefully society will get to a point where that wouldn't be the case automatically, but it'll take some time and an increase in character diversity for that to come about.

So yes, it's technically a double standard, and it sucks, but there are certain factors as to why it is.

[wildojinx]

Oct 25, 2013 20:28:41 GMT -5 Cyno said:

I think All In The Family would still work fine in this day and age. Though it'd probably be on FX or Comedy Central instead of network television. Then again, Fox broadcasts Family Guy, so.

The thing to remember with Archie Bunker is that we were never laughing with him; we were laughing at him and his backwards ways. There's an important distinction there.

It should be noted (without getting too political) that there WERE fans who agreed with Archie, and they did eventually make Archie more and more likable (by the later seasons he felt more like a grandfather). While we're at it, you probably COULD get away with a white Sanford and Son, since their race was almost never an issue (and with the popularity of American Pickers and the like, a show about junk dealers would be popular with that audience).

[Big DSR Energy]

Oct 25, 2013 20:39:33 GMT -5 wildojinx said:

Oct 25, 2013 20:28:41 GMT -5 Cyno said:

I think All In The Family would still work fine in this day and age. Though it'd probably be on FX or Comedy Central instead of network television. Then again, Fox broadcasts Family Guy, so.

The thing to remember with Archie Bunker is that we were never laughing with him; we were laughing at him and his backwards ways. There's an important distinction there.

It should be noted (without getting too political) that there WERE fans who agreed with Archie, and they did eventually make Archie more and more likable (by the later seasons he felt more like a grandfather). While we're at it, you probably COULD get away with a white Sanford and Son, since their race was almost never an issue (and with the popularity of American Pickers and the like, a show about junk dealers would be popular with that audience).

Also, Sanford and Son was based on a British sitcom, called Steptoe and Son, and the main characters of that show were white.

[Reflecto]

Oct 25, 2013 20:37:52 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

To me, a race or sexuality change wouldn't be as damaging to a character as if they suddenly went against all they represented personality wise. I'd be a lot more pissed if, say, Spider-Man was retconned in a future movie as a moronic bully who hated science than if he were written as relatively the same, only gay.

On the flipside, as for changing a minority character to a WASP, on paper...no, that wouldn't automatically be a bad thing so long as there were a decently written reason for it. But as I noted, due to the loooooooooong history of minority misrepresentation and exclusions over the decades, people's eyebrows would go up and skepticism would rise for good reason. Now hopefully society will get to a point where that wouldn't be the case automatically, but it'll take some time and an increase in character diversity for that to come about.

So yes, it's technically a double standard, and it sucks, but there are certain factors as to why it is.

Being fair, though, this is a point for why there is a double standard that needs to be mentioned:

Quite frankly- a lot of the "classic" minority characters who people point to as icons of minority characterization weren't THAT great as characters. Most of this was a product of the time period they were written in, and that is a fair reasoning for why they are what they are- but it leads to the real issue. As was said earlier in this thread, if we assume a minority character who spends all their time reminding you that they are of this minority group, above all else, is a poorly written character- then you have to look at most of the best minority characters in culture and realize- the VAST majority of the most beloved minority characters did fall into this hole.

That leads to the double standard in the modern era more than anything else. It isn't misrepresentation or exclusion that leads to it, but as it was said: Most of the characters DID have their minority be their defining characteristic, so you can't change their race now because of it. That leads to most of the problems on all sides- and it makes everything worse as a result, but it also has to be seen that it is harder to whitewash minority characters when, during their creation, they originally wrote them when they were created in ways we'd see as poorly written in 2013.

[h]

Whatever happened to the Welcome Back, Kotter remake with Ice Cube?

[Kevin Hamilton]

It'd be interesting to see like a black or Asian or what have you say Sub-Mariner or Aquaman, since they're Atlantean the race argument wouldn't hold that much water.

Though I will admit to being of two minds on the subject. On the one hand, yeah, unless a character's ethnicity is an explicit component of that character it shouldn't/doesn't matter; but at the same time, I would kinda like your big iconic characters: your Supermans, your Batmans, your Spider-mans to look like they've looked for decades. That doesn't honestly have that much to do with race (and besides with Superman being Kryptonian, he's as much a candidate for a race swap as any), and more with just how I'm used to seeing them. Like, I wasn't even crazy about Man of Steel taking away the trunks, and that's just a cosmetic change to his outfit.

At the end of the day though, even if they did change an iconic character, I'd get used to it so long as the core of the character was intact. It's all just different interpretations anyway.

[Cyno]

Same with Superman in that regard. He's Kryptonian. His skin color is completely irrelevant to his character since he's an alien. He would just need some way for him to fit in as Clark Kent.

[celticjobber]

I'm still expecting a terrible Back to the Future remake starring Jaden Smith as Marty, Will Smith as George, and Morgan Freeman as Doc Brown.