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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 27, 2013 15:28:20 GMT -5
Nowhere near
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Post by angryfan on Dec 27, 2013 15:47:23 GMT -5
Depends how you look at it.
Bruno, Hogan, and Austin are all ahead of him, the first for many years of being a sports hero the same way the Yankees were in New York. Austin and Hogan were greater in terms of non-fans knowing them, tuning in, and spending money.
In terms of kayfabe, Bruno was unbeatable for years, no one touched him. Flair held more titles.
However, in terms of public image for the company, I'd say he's up there with Bruno, and considering the death of kayfabe it almost makes Cena's image more impressive.
Dude gets almost no flack from non-wrestling fans in terms of the man himself, no controversies, never beat up his wife or got hammered and made a fool of himself. Closest would be the Cena divorce, which was handled very quickly. Also, he does so much for charity, and even as a non Cena fan he seems absolutely genuine about it.
so in terms of public image, both for the company and himself, I'd say we could say he is the greatest ever. Remove kayfabe, take economics out of it, and he's right with Bruno.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Dec 27, 2013 16:01:03 GMT -5
Anyone who half the arena boos or chants that they suck cannot objectively be considered as the all time greatest. It's laughable.
1. Hogan 2. Austin
The order of the rest is up for debate but Rock, Flair, Savage, Andre, Piper, Undertaker, HBK and Bret Hart should be ahead of Cena. And then there's the older guys like Sammartino, Gorgeous George, Rogers, Blassie and a bunch of others I'm not too familiar with but were huge pre-80s and then there's the globally famous guys like Rikidozan, El Santo, Inoki, etc that would need to be considered before him too.
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Post by Piccolo on Dec 27, 2013 16:01:27 GMT -5
Depends how you look at it. Bruno, Hogan, and Austin are all ahead of him, the first for many years of being a sports hero the same way the Yankees were in New York. Austin and Hogan were greater in terms of non-fans knowing them, tuning in, and spending money. In terms of kayfabe, Bruno was unbeatable for years, no one touched him. Flair held more titles. However, in terms of public image for the company, I'd say he's up there with Bruno, and considering the death of kayfabe it almost makes Cena's image more impressive. Dude gets almost no flack from non-wrestling fans in terms of the man himself, no controversies, never beat up his wife or got hammered and made a fool of himself. Closest would be the Cena divorce, which was handled very quickly. Also, he does so much for charity, and even as a non Cena fan he seems absolutely genuine about it. so in terms of public image, both for the company and himself, I'd say we could say he is the greatest ever. Remove kayfabe, take economics out of it, and he's right with Bruno. It's kind of like he rates better on the "Who was the best employee?" list as opposed to the "Who was the biggest pop culture phenomenon?" list.
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Post by The Masked Heel WAS WRONG on Dec 27, 2013 16:06:53 GMT -5
Rather than rank the best, it's easier to group them according to tiers. The top tier, to me, is Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, the Rock, and the Undertaker. If you were to randomly ask someone on the street, "when I say 'wrestling' who comes to mind?", the answers you would get would either be Hogan or Austin. Hogan practically IS the definition of wrestling to most people considering how long he's been active as the top guy. Austin would be mentioned because he was the top guy during wrestling's hottest period, back when wrestling was both popular AND cool. The Rock has transcended the wrestling business itself and is known as a mega-successful movie star. The Undertaker also deserves a mention because he embodies the spirit of wrestling's gimmickiness. If you were an 18 year old fan in 1990 or a four year old fan in 2013, you know who the Undertaker is, you 'get' him and his gimmick and why he's in wrestling as soon as you see him. The second tier is where I would place John Cena, along with Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Randy Savage, and Triple H. Very successful in the wrestling business, to the point that they had to carry Vince McMahon's company on their back at any one time. However, if you were to randomly ask someone on the street "when I say 'wrestling' who comes to mind?", I highly doubt people would say, "oh, that thing John Cena does." Which is the same for Hart, Michaels, Savage, and Triple H. The third tier includes guys like Roddy Piper, Ted DiBiase, Yokozuna, Mankind, Kane, the Big Show, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, Batista, Edge, and CM Punk. These guys are the ones who the others in the top two tiers rely on to be in those tiers in the first place. I see no point, personally, in ranking Hogan over Austin or Cena over Savage or Piper over Batista because they were each doing different things at different times because they had to. However, I do think that you could easily group wrestlers together in terms of the impact they had on the business itself and popular culture. Has John Cena changed the business at all, then, in this respect? Has he ever had moments that have made wrestling something worth watching within popular culture as a whole? I don't think so. But that's not to say he's not important at all, or that he's not good enough to warrant on being on some form of Top X Wrestlers of All Time list. But he's not the greatest of all time, despite his kayfabe achievements to the contrary. Randy Savage is more top tier than Taker. Randy Savage is more top tier than Taker
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Dec 27, 2013 17:14:25 GMT -5
Not a hope in hell. I like Cena but he is 'merely' the most prominent superstar of this generation but it's not the most prolific, memorable or important generations. Hogan, Rock, Austin, Piper and Flair I think would rank above him for various reasons. How is Piper above Cena? Piper was a huge mainstream star from about 1984-1988. Cena has never had that to that degree. I don't think many people outside the wrestling audience or current target demographic would actually have much of a clue who John Cena was. Whereby nearly everyone would be able to put a face and job to the name 'Rowdy Roddy Piper' It isn't so much longevity as memorability and historical value of a name. Right now Cena will sell out arenas and Roddy Pipper won't but that argument is as much valid as going back to 1985 and saying "Piper must be better a Cena isn't out of short-trousers yet". Historically, all things considered, Piper is a bigger name would have bee adjudged to have had the biggest impact on the mainstream than Cena.w He was there at the cusp of the new explosion of wrestling on the national and international level. That's worth far, far more than a guy who just happened to have been around a while or (in Cena's case) the guy who happened to be in the top spot at time of writing.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Boo! on Dec 27, 2013 17:21:01 GMT -5
Randy Savage is more top tier than Taker. Randy Savage is more top tier than Taker Undertaker 's pretty much skewed by his longevity. I think for this reason people rank him higher than they should be if we look at most of the standard critiera; he's never been the 'leader' of any new generation of wrestling fans nor the main catalyst for them, he's never really had any mainstream appeal, he's never really had a track record of drawing either television numbers or PPV buys - the only think he has in favour is time served. Now if we compare that to someone of say Piper who has had far fewer years at the top of the industry than Taker but was the main antagonist of (in terms of numbers who watched) the biggest boom period in wrestling or even Savage who was involved in to date one of WWE's hottest ever feuds - I don't think Taker can compare. He probably has one of the best gimmicks ever but people literally grew up hating Ric Flair and Roddy Piper. Hating them. Taker was always a guy who was "also on the card" whether it be the late Hulkamnaiac-era fans through to fans of either HBK and Bret through to the Attitude Era and today. Taker was never really the main guy on the card or the main reason people turned up. He was always "on the card" and despite having a great gimmick and unique look his only claim to the top spots in this regard is the number of years he's stuck around.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2013 17:30:55 GMT -5
Anyone who half the arena boos or chants that they suck cannot objectively be considered as the all time greatest. It's laughable. 1. Hogan 2. Austin The order of the rest is up for debate but Rock, Flair, Savage, Andre, Piper, Undertaker, HBK and Bret Hart should be ahead of Cena. And then there's the older guys like Sammartino, Gorgeous George, Rogers, Blassie and a bunch of others I'm not too familiar with but were huge pre-80s and then there's the globally famous guys like Rikidozan, El Santo, Inoki, etc that would need to be considered before him too. Let me call you a cab.
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The Robisher
Trap-Jaw
Deaf by nature. Proud by choice.
Posts: 255
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Post by The Robisher on Dec 27, 2013 17:42:12 GMT -5
I'll go for broke and say Cena is one of the best improvisational talkers in professional wrestling period. You take away the script and he can still cut a compelling promo. Proof? His promos against CM Punk when Punk was still a heel and his more recent one against Randy Orton on the Raw before TLC 2013 ppv. We've given him a lot of crap over the years, but that is one thing I think we can honestly give him credit for.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2013 17:52:17 GMT -5
In terms of wrestling, marketability, mic skills, charisma etc...
1. Hulk Hogan 2. Steve Austin 3. The Rock 4. John Cena 5. Ric Flair
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Post by angryfan on Dec 27, 2013 17:56:53 GMT -5
I'll go for broke and say Cena is one of the best improvisational talkers in professional wrestling period. You take away the script and he can still cut a compelling promo. Proof? His promos against CM Punk when Punk was still a heel and his more recent one against Randy Orton on the Raw before TLC 2013 ppv. We've given him a lot of crap over the years, but that is one thing I think we can honestly give him credit for. Cena is a good "off script" promo, but honestly it's skewed. Fifteen or twenty years ago, how many guys were sent out there with word for word promos? Everybody had to be able to go off the cuff or work without a net. Cena's abilities without a script, at least to some degree, get magnified because other guys either can't remember how to go out there and just talk or have never had to in the case of many with no time outside of WWE. No shot at Cena, when he goes off script and remembers to keep it short (three or four minutes tops) he's as good as anyone. However, context is important.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Dec 27, 2013 18:02:11 GMT -5
I'll go for broke and say Cena is one of the best improvisational talkers in professional wrestling period. You take away the script and he can still cut a compelling promo. Proof? His promos against CM Punk when Punk was still a heel and his more recent one against Randy Orton on the Raw before TLC 2013 ppv. We've given him a lot of crap over the years, but that is one thing I think we can honestly give him credit for. Cena is a good "off script" promo, but honestly it's skewed. Fifteen or twenty years ago, how many guys were sent out there with word for word promos? Everybody had to be able to go off the cuff or work without a net. Cena's abilities without a script, at least to some degree, get magnified because other guys either can't remember how to go out there and just talk or have never had to in the case of many with no time outside of WWE. No shot at Cena, when he goes off script and remembers to keep it short (three or four minutes tops) he's as good as anyone. However, context is important. I don't even think a lot of superstars are allowed to go off script. I remember a report that said Ziggler got in trouble for trying to do so before. He even said as much in an interview I saw.
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Post by Some Guy on Dec 27, 2013 18:14:26 GMT -5
Piper was a huge mainstream star from about 1984-1988. Cena has never had that to that degree. I don't think many people outside the wrestling audience or current target demographic would actually have much of a clue who John Cena was. Whereby nearly everyone would be able to put a face and job to the name 'Rowdy Roddy Piper' It isn't so much longevity as memorability and historical value of a name. Right now Cena will sell out arenas and Roddy Pipper won't but that argument is as much valid as going back to 1985 and saying "Piper must be better a Cena isn't out of short-trousers yet". Historically, all things considered, Piper is a bigger name would have bee adjudged to have had the biggest impact on the mainstream than Cena.w He was there at the cusp of the new explosion of wrestling on the national and international level. That's worth far, far more than a guy who just happened to have been around a while or (in Cena's case) the guy who happened to be in the top spot at time of writing. Piper's short burst of mainstream fame does not put him above Cena. Yes, he had a hit role in a solid action movie, but that's not enough to put him over Cena. He was never THE guy, he was never a big time champ, he doesn't have that many hugely memorable matches, and more people might know Jimmy Snuka in the same matter...but he's not bigger than Cena, either. I like Piper, but Cena is a much bigger star.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 27, 2013 18:23:22 GMT -5
Piper didn't need the mainstream to be famous. Most people would recognise his name due solely to his wrestling career. That's all he needed.
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The Robisher
Trap-Jaw
Deaf by nature. Proud by choice.
Posts: 255
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Post by The Robisher on Dec 27, 2013 18:23:32 GMT -5
That being said, I hope the WWE Performance Center teaches its students how to work a crowd and talk. With Dusty Rhodes as one of the head instructors it should come as part of the training. Facts are facts, the territorial days are over where a wrestler had to learn how to speak on the mic from trial and error. But with WWE programming scripted as it is, there should be some kind of balance between reading from copy and making it sound natural. Orton was one of the worst at this not too long ago, but he's adapted and become...well, someone you actually want to listen to now. Go figure.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 27, 2013 18:28:54 GMT -5
The WWE Performance Centre can teach whatever they want about promos. As long as the performers are parroting the shit that Vince has edited, changed, reworked and ruined, they still won't get over.
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BigBadZ
Grimlock
The Rumors Are All True
Posts: 13,923
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Post by BigBadZ on Dec 27, 2013 19:37:44 GMT -5
Piper was a huge mainstream star from about 1984-1988. Cena has never had that to that degree. I don't think many people outside the wrestling audience or current target demographic would actually have much of a clue who John Cena was. Whereby nearly everyone would be able to put a face and job to the name 'Rowdy Roddy Piper' It isn't so much longevity as memorability and historical value of a name. Right now Cena will sell out arenas and Roddy Pipper won't but that argument is as much valid as going back to 1985 and saying "Piper must be better a Cena isn't out of short-trousers yet". Historically, all things considered, Piper is a bigger name would have bee adjudged to have had the biggest impact on the mainstream than Cena.w He was there at the cusp of the new explosion of wrestling on the national and international level. That's worth far, far more than a guy who just happened to have been around a while or (in Cena's case) the guy who happened to be in the top spot at time of writing. Piper's short burst of mainstream fame does not put him above Cena. Yes, he had a hit role in a solid action movie, but that's not enough to put him over Cena. He was never THE guy, he was never a big time champ, he doesn't have that many hugely memorable matches, and more people might know Jimmy Snuka in the same matter...but he's not bigger than Cena, either. I like Piper, but Cena is a much bigger star. Yea, to say Cena is relatively unknown to non-wrestling fans where as they all know who Roddy Piper is, doesn't sound right. Yea, his movies have failed and Piper had one but Cena is on the cover of Fruity Pebbles for goodness sake. Maybe one could attribute that WWE is in more households and advertising today than back in the 80s but Cena is the bigger star than Piper.
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Post by Some Guy on Dec 27, 2013 19:54:50 GMT -5
Piper didn't need the mainstream to be famous. Most people would recognise his name due solely to his wrestling career. That's all he needed. Still not nearly as big as Cena.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 27, 2013 20:30:57 GMT -5
Piper didn't need the mainstream to be famous. Most people would recognise his name due solely to his wrestling career. That's all he needed. Still not nearly as big as Cena. I think he was. We see Cena's face more often, simply because media is more extensive now, but I don't think Cena has the pop culture fame that Piper, and indeed many others from WWE history have had. That ended with the Attitude Era with guys like Stone Cold and the Rock. I don't think many if any WWE stars developed from say 2002 onwards have been in the pop culture zeitgeist.
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Post by angryfan on Dec 27, 2013 20:49:52 GMT -5
I get there's an age gap, but there is a world of difference between Piper and Cena. One is "the guy" for the company, and the other played his part, however, the one who "played his part" drew money with his mouth, with his matches, and is still a pop culture reference and a known name decades after his peak.
Cena is THE face of WWE right now, no doubt, and they've got a good person in the fold who has the image they need, he's just the face during a down period when wrestling is popular, when people have more options to watch, and when people can become "pop culture icons" with a youtube video.
Piper has the "back when wrestling was huge" nostalgia thing. The kids tuning in now have parents my age who will talk about how cool these guys were, anyone who loves B horror movies (and that's a good sized group) knows Piper.
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