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Post by Loki on Oct 23, 2006 17:51:07 GMT -5
The match was surely great for the WMIII card, and it's still above average from an excitement and storytelling standpoint, but it's not The Ultimate 5* Classic as it's often regarded to be.
Of course it has to be put into the right perspective, taking into account the "who, when, why and how".
So I agree with both "detractors" and "apologists"...
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Post by -Lithium- on Oct 23, 2006 17:58:35 GMT -5
Thank God. Ive felt that way for a long time, the match aint no ***** classic, dont care what time its in...
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Post by Ultimo Chocula on Oct 23, 2006 18:01:58 GMT -5
Another thing to consider was back in those days there weren't PPV's every single month, so when these guys finally squared off it was a big friggin' deal. Nowadays you'd have a match like this on any given RAW, Smackdown, or Impact.
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Post by tmp2005 on Oct 23, 2006 18:06:07 GMT -5
Yeah, you could say it hasn't stood the test of time. That's fine. When you consider how much more fast paced and fluid wrestling generally is today, it's easy to see why a match like that may be more uninteresting to some folks. I probably like it more because of the nostalgia and memory more than anything. It's the same reason why I'm still entertained by old Hogan matches. I think, though, that we're always going to see things like that. Even now, with young Indy wrestlers, I'm seeing a move like the Diamond Cutter, which was a way cool finish, now being used as a regular move.
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Midnight Rider
Team Rocket
Don't tell anyone I'm actually Blackjack Mulligan
Posts: 844
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Post by Midnight Rider on Oct 23, 2006 18:15:33 GMT -5
Steamboat/Savage is I think,one of those kind of matches that you really had to be into wrestling when it happened,otherwise its difficult to get a good grasp on the emotion and drama present at the time during the match and previously during the build-up to it.
Personal taste also really comes into play;for those brought up on or preferring the new style with its faster pace and greater amount of highspots,you probably won't get enjoyment out of many,possibly even any,old style matches as the pace is slower and the wrestlers are not and probably will not do anything you have never seen before.
In a way,Steamboat/Savage is analogous to an old horror film:In the old days,not much could be done in the way of believeable special effects so graphic scenes were avoided,the suspense was built up through the acting.For those who prefer good acting,such films are classic,but to those accostumed to modern horror films,where more believeable and frequent special effects are often the centerpiece as opposed to the acting,such older films are the most boring thing ever.
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Post by antimcmahon on Oct 23, 2006 20:08:24 GMT -5
I'm kind of up in the air on this one. Iv'e always considered it as a classic because of all the awesome near falls. But I hate the ending, And seeing macthes like Steamboat/Flair or Dynamite Kid/Tiger Mask it juts kind of diminishes the classic of Savage/Steamboat. But I will never ever say it wasnt a great match because for it's time it truly was. Not only that but it was the great match that made me stand up and take notice of what a good wrestling match truly is and for that if nothing else I will always have a soft spot in my heart for it. But yes I do think it's a tad bit overated but even still the best IC title match of all time.
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Post by thesunbeast on Oct 24, 2006 3:12:36 GMT -5
I already spoke about this, so I don't want to say too much here. But you have to consider the time period. they didn't have a bunch of smarks "anylizing" the match, thinking that they know what the're talking about when they really don't. Nobody was watching for the moves, or the "spots", or the "timing". The fans cared about Steamboat BEATING savage. Back then, EVERY pinfall attempt was important, they thought that the match could end right there. nobody disreguarded the pin attempts because they "knew" that the match wouldn't end that way. thats how things were then, and that was the best possible match you could ever have wrestled for that era, the era of making sense. Now, what is judged as a good match is COMPLETELY different, not necessarily better, but different. Nowadays, people don't care about sense, they care about "closeness". If a match is close, and even, then it's good, even if it's Big show vs Rey Mysterio. Nowadays, the fans aren't gonna let a little thing like sense ruin a match now are they? But back then, you had to have sense for the match to be considered good, if something worked, then they'd stick with it, because it made sense, and the fans bought it. What was considered a good match then, would be average now, but what is considered a good match now, would have been awful then, trust me.
If in 1987, someone did a running plancha over the ropes onto a crowd of people waiting for him, the fans would have FIRST said "why the hell did they just stand there?" But AFTER THAT they would have said it was cool. Now, if the crowd of wrestlers were to move out of the way, the fans would actually boo. They don't even WANT the wrestlers to move, because they want to see a cool spot. There was more of a sense of competitiveness back then, it was about WINNING. To the fans it was about doing what made sense to win. they watched wrestling then how we watch the UFC now. Now forrest griffin vs Stephan Bonner was considered one of the best, in an era known for 30 second fights. But if everyone found out that UFC was scripted, then they would want every match to be like Griffin/Bonnar, and if they were, then griffin Bonnar wouldn't be speicail anymore. So just for the fact that Steamboat/Savage is considered good for todays backwards standards shows how great it really was.
You have to anylize matches as marks, not smarks, because smarks don't know it all anyway, but marks know exactly what you're supposed to know.
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Scott
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,577
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Post by Scott on Oct 24, 2006 3:53:07 GMT -5
As dated as it seems now, this was the first great wrestling match to get national exposure. The NWA had things going on and even the WWF to that point but never in a bigger time or place. It seems like all the "better" matches you see now are all copied from the foundation this match created.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2006 10:07:27 GMT -5
Around that time, the best matches were tag-team matches. Seriously. The tag team division was so strong and loaded with talent it was mind-boggling. The Hart Foundation held the tag belts, but one of any number of tag teams had a serious chance at winning the titles. The Killer Bees. The British Bulldogs. Junkyard Dog & Tito Santana. The Rougeau Brothers. The Can-Am Connection. All had a legit shot.
Rare was the time where you'd have a really strong match between two singles wrestlers. The build-up was tremendous, the pay-off was Steamboat taking the title from that creep. Savage was the epitome of the term "heel", and you wanted to see someone whip his ass and take his belt. Steamboat took it to him. There was a lot of emotion in that match. I wasn't much of a Rick Steamboat fan before the match, but he won me over.
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KLRA
El Dandy
Halt. I am Reptar.
Posts: 7,591
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Post by KLRA on Oct 24, 2006 10:29:47 GMT -5
I already spoke about this, so I don't want to say too much here. But you have to consider the time period. they didn't have a bunch of smarks "anylizing" the match, thinking that they know what the're talking about when they really don't. Nobody was watching for the moves, or the "spots", or the "timing". The fans cared about Steamboat BEATING savage. Back then, EVERY pinfall attempt was important, they thought that the match could end right there. nobody disreguarded the pin attempts because they "knew" that the match wouldn't end that way. thats how things were then, and that was the best possible match you could ever have wrestled for that era, the era of making sense. Now, what is judged as a good match is COMPLETELY different, not necessarily better, but different. Nowadays, people don't care about sense, they care about "closeness". If a match is close, and even, then it's good, even if it's Big show vs Rey Mysterio. Nowadays, the fans aren't gonna let a little thing like sense ruin a match now are they? But back then, you had to have sense for the match to be considered good, if something worked, then they'd stick with it, because it made sense, and the fans bought it. What was considered a good match then, would be average now, but what is considered a good match now, would have been awful then, trust me. If in 1987, someone did a running plancha over the ropes onto a crowd of people waiting for him, the fans would have FIRST said "why the hell did they just stand there?" But AFTER THAT they would have said it was cool. Now, if the crowd of wrestlers were to move out of the way, the fans would actually boo. They don't even WANT the wrestlers to move, because they want to see a cool spot. There was more of a sense of competitiveness back then, it was about WINNING. To the fans it was about doing what made sense to win. they watched wrestling then how we watch the UFC now. Now forrest griffin vs Stephan Bonner was considered one of the best, in an era known for 30 second fights. But if everyone found out that UFC was scripted, then they would want every match to be like Griffin/Bonnar, and if they were, then griffin Bonnar wouldn't be speicail anymore. So just for the fact that Steamboat/Savage is considered good for todays backwards standards shows how great it really was. You have to anylize matches as marks, not smarks, because smarks don't know it all anyway, but marks know exactly what you're supposed to know. That's true, and yet at the same time it isn't. One of the most highly regarded matches of the past couple years (CM Punk vs. Samoe Joe, II) I say was a lot closer to Steamboat/Savage than it wasn't. I mean, seriously, there wasn't a ton of high spots in that match, even by 1980's standards (except for, you know, the whole Punk being tossed into the guardrail spot), and the main thing that a lot of people remember about that match is Punk constantly working over the chinlock, sleeperhold, anyything that had to do with putting pressure on Joe's neck. It wasn't a match about dives to the outside, how many flips someone could do, how many high spots there were, it was a match about making sense, which is what good ring psychology is. I believe that it was Raven who said that no matter how many flips someone does in a match, no matter how many high spots someone does in a match, the match on the card that people are going to remember most is the match that made the most sense. And smarks are notorious for foaming at the mouth when it comes to ring psychology. Yeah, we love our high spot-kateers, but when it comes down to it, the most remembered matches are the ones that make sense.
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Dynamic Dee
ALF
I love it when they call me Big Papa
Posts: 1,174
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Post by Dynamic Dee on Oct 24, 2006 10:40:52 GMT -5
The moves in the match were not very flashy, but it was a realistically worked match that fans could buy into. I remember Bret Hart talking about making everything look believable and I think they both did a good job of that.
Another thing was the roles they played. Savage was such a nasty heel that people loved to hate. He was mean to his beautiful manager Elizabeth and he had a long run as the IC champion in which he constantly used every dirty trick in the book to retain. Steamboat was a classic babyface whose personality was the opposite of Savage's. Plus add to the fact that Savage brutally injured him made for a great storyline. Even the fact the George Steele helped Steamboat out meant something because of how much he was screwed over by Savage in the year before. Everything that went into this made it legendary. Its not the best match ever but it is one of the most memorable.
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kevinhardy
Dennis Stamp
Because I can become a better Champion than this person.
Posts: 4,115
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Post by kevinhardy on Oct 24, 2006 14:49:35 GMT -5
is a great match from its time.
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