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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 18, 2014 22:03:53 GMT -5
No, because you're (presumably) not hugging the person's butt, crotch, or breasts. It's obnoxious behavior, and it's not acceptable if the person's not okay with it, but there's nothing overtly sexual about it, so it's not sexual harassment. Convincing someone that what you're doing to them isn't harassment doesn't make it okay. There's a difference between wanting something to happen and not flipping your top about it once it does happen. You don't get what I'm saying. We all draw our lines, and we all define what places or actions might be construed as sexual. A tight hug or a foot rub could mean nothing... or they could mean something. Nobody has a right to declare a set of intrinsic parameters for everybody. Ultimately, a victim can only be a victim if that person feels impacted by it. Even if it involves touching a butt. I think you might be missing the forest for the trees, here. Sure, an act can be innocent or not depending on the people involved, within reason: If I say "The clerk at the store wore a red shirt when he handed me my change, and that's outside my limits, so he sexually harassed me!" then I wouldn't have a very compelling case, because it's too bizarre and idiosyncratic. But that's not the point. If JBL and Edge (and whoever else were his targets) had some kind of consensual sexual relationship that involved soapy showers, no one would have a problem with it. But that's not what was happening here. What was happening was, social pressure (wanting to keep a job; wanting to be accepted by coworkers; wanting not to inspire worse hazing down the line) led people to believe putting up with Bradshaw's behavior was worth it. Or, at the very least, it led them to not complain about it. If you ask a victim if they "feel harassed," one big reason they might say no is, if they say yes, "Holy shit, I have to face the fact that I was sexually harassed!" Things aren't as clear-cut as you're making them out. So sure, Bradshaw's behavior was "within Edge's boundaries", in the sense that he didn't run away, and in the sense that he laughed it off afterwards. But Edge's boundaries were set by the larger situation, the social pressure. And Bradshaw knew perfectly well that this pressure existed, and it let him get away with doing things he wouldn't have been able to do in other situations. This is all moot anyway, because at least one person has quit the company because of Bradshaw's shower antics, so it's not like everything's been all hunky-dory.
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Post by Ken: The Hero of WWE on Apr 18, 2014 22:08:34 GMT -5
SHOWER RAPE, MAGGLE! I LOVE IT!
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Post by Sponsored by Groose Wipes on Apr 18, 2014 23:59:32 GMT -5
WE WASH ASSES ON FRIDAYS MAGGLE!
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Apr 19, 2014 0:02:09 GMT -5
WE WASH ASSES ON FRIDAYS MAGGLE! Only Fridays? That's a bit unhygienic.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 0:06:22 GMT -5
So far as I know, he did not actually "rape" anyone. But he did leave someone hog tied with a ball gag in their mouth. For what it's worth as well: The story also claimed when JBL DID go that far on someone, the victim was a person who the wrestlers knew was using GHB on women himself. I heard he didn't actually rape anyone, just threatened to rape a guy who had date raped a girl. He supposedly tied him up in the shower and prepared him with baby oil.
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Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
Posts: 7,951
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Post by Lancers on Apr 19, 2014 0:10:28 GMT -5
Another sign of how profoundly messed up the wrestling world is that this was considered acceptable. Have to wonder if those days are over or if this thing still happens under the radar. You clearly missed Wrestletaint.gov's mindblowing expose on backstage bukkake events that are being bankrolled by big money benefactors. It goes all the way up the corporate ladder straight to the top. This stuff is deranged. Medical personnel aren't allowed to operate a stomach pump. Vomiting can even get you fired. It's outrageous! If that's not sick enough, they even have a women's division too. You'll never look at Aksana the same way again.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Apr 19, 2014 0:12:03 GMT -5
I think you might be missing the forest for the trees, here. Sure, an act can be innocent or not depending on the people involved, within reason: If I say "The clerk at the store wore a red shirt when he handed me my change, and that's outside my limits, so he sexually harassed me!" then I wouldn't have a very compelling case, because it's too bizarre and idiosyncratic. But that's not the point. If JBL and Edge (and whoever else were his targets) had some kind of consensual sexual relationship that involved soapy showers, no one would have a problem with it. But that's not what was happening here. What was happening was, social pressure (wanting to keep a job; wanting to be accepted by coworkers; wanting not to inspire worse hazing down the line) led people to believe putting up with Bradshaw's behavior was worth it. Or, at the very least, it led them to not complain about it. If you ask a victim if they "feel harassed," one big reason they might say no is, if they say yes, "Holy shit, I have to face the fact that I was sexually harassed!" Things aren't as clear-cut as you're making them out. So sure, Bradshaw's behavior was "within Edge's boundaries", in the sense that he didn't run away, and in the sense that he laughed it off afterwards. But Edge's boundaries were set by the larger situation, the social pressure. And Bradshaw knew perfectly well that this pressure existed, and it let him get away with doing things he wouldn't have been able to do in other situations. This is all moot anyway, because at least one person has quit the company because of Bradshaw's shower antics, so it's not like everything's been all hunky-dory. The problem is that, you're also missing the forest for the trees too, because there is that point- it IS innocent or not depending on the people involved, on their reason. If you want to say "The clerk at the store wore a red shirt when he handed me my change, and that's outside my limits, so he sexually harassed me!", and it's your own hangup? Bizarre, idiosyncratic, yes- but it's your right to feel that way. BE bizarre and idiosyncratic if that's your claim. But even THAT is different because again, it's all different. If you're going to say that is sexual harassment to you because the clerk at the store wore a red shirt when he handed you your change, it's one thing. But if you're hanging out protesting outside Target and going to every person who walks out of the building, saying "You saw the cashier's red shirts, right? They handed you change? You KNOW they just sexually harassed you! Why aren't you all offended? You should protest alongside me, or you're no better than they are and you're literally sexually harassing me by ALLOWING THIS!", THEN it's doing the exact same thing.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,426
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Post by FinalGwen on Apr 19, 2014 0:13:05 GMT -5
Another sign of how profoundly messed up the wrestling world is that this was considered acceptable. Have to wonder if those days are over or if this thing still happens under the radar. You clearly missed Wrestletaint.gov's mindblowing expose on backstage bukkake events that are being bankrolled by big money benefactors. It goes all the way up the corporate ladder straight to the top. This stuff is deranged. Medical personnel aren't allowed to operate a stomach pump. Vomiting can even get you fired. It's outrageous! If that's not sick enough, they even have a women's division too. You'll never look at Aksana the same way again. I don't know how to reply to this, beyond the fact that Tainted Love came up on iTunes a minute before I saw this post, and it feels bizarrely appropriate.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 19, 2014 0:39:13 GMT -5
I think you might be missing the forest for the trees, here. Sure, an act can be innocent or not depending on the people involved, within reason: If I say "The clerk at the store wore a red shirt when he handed me my change, and that's outside my limits, so he sexually harassed me!" then I wouldn't have a very compelling case, because it's too bizarre and idiosyncratic. But that's not the point. If JBL and Edge (and whoever else were his targets) had some kind of consensual sexual relationship that involved soapy showers, no one would have a problem with it. But that's not what was happening here. What was happening was, social pressure (wanting to keep a job; wanting to be accepted by coworkers; wanting not to inspire worse hazing down the line) led people to believe putting up with Bradshaw's behavior was worth it. Or, at the very least, it led them to not complain about it. If you ask a victim if they "feel harassed," one big reason they might say no is, if they say yes, "Holy shit, I have to face the fact that I was sexually harassed!" Things aren't as clear-cut as you're making them out. So sure, Bradshaw's behavior was "within Edge's boundaries", in the sense that he didn't run away, and in the sense that he laughed it off afterwards. But Edge's boundaries were set by the larger situation, the social pressure. And Bradshaw knew perfectly well that this pressure existed, and it let him get away with doing things he wouldn't have been able to do in other situations. This is all moot anyway, because at least one person has quit the company because of Bradshaw's shower antics, so it's not like everything's been all hunky-dory. The problem is that, you're also missing the forest for the trees too, because there is that point- it IS innocent or not depending on the people involved, on their reason. If you want to say "The clerk at the store wore a red shirt when he handed me my change, and that's outside my limits, so he sexually harassed me!", and it's your own hangup? Bizarre, idiosyncratic, yes- but it's your right to feel that way. BE bizarre and idiosyncratic if that's your claim. But even THAT is different because again, it's all different. If you're going to say that is sexual harassment to you because the clerk at the store wore a red shirt when he handed you your change, it's one thing. But if you're hanging out protesting outside Target and going to every person who walks out of the building, saying "You saw the cashier's red shirts, right? They handed you change? You KNOW they just sexually harassed you! Why aren't you all offended? You should protest alongside me, or you're no better than they are and you're literally sexually harassing me by ALLOWING THIS!", THEN it's doing the exact same thing. I'm not even sure the extent to which we're agreeing and disagreeing. It sounds like we're both saying that "Being sexually harassed" and "feeling sexually harassed" are two different things, and while the latter results in feelings that should be respected, it's not a stand-in for the former. So... don't we agree? If all you mean is that if Edge had consented to the kinky soap butt play, then it isn't sexual harassment, then yeah... obviously, that's no longer unwanted contact. But it sounds like you're talking about meta-boundaries. Like... boundaries regarding how upset you're going to get after someone does something you didn't want them to do. "Sure, I didn't want him to do that, but it didn't bother me." Boundaries for after the boundaries have been crossed. Maybe part of the issue is, you're focused on the aftermath, which doesn't matter that much. Sexual harassment isn't determined by how much pain and suffering it causes, because there's trillions of factors affecting that: suddenly, an emotionally stoic person can never be harassed as severely as a neurotic person. And there's also the thing I said before: one very common psychological defense about being violated is laughing it off and convincing yourself it wasn't a big deal, especially when the harasser put subtle pressure on you, but that doesn't mean you weren't harassed. It is very skeezy to think that manipulating your victim might somehow reduce the severity of your moral violation.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,891
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Apr 19, 2014 1:42:17 GMT -5
What about the little girl on the Coppertone bottle, is that sexual harassment?
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Post by The Beast Disincarnate on Apr 19, 2014 2:46:21 GMT -5
Sexual harassment or not, the sure thing is that's totally GAY!
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Apr 19, 2014 2:54:02 GMT -5
Sexual harassment or not, the sure thing is that's totally GAY! Shhhh....It's only gay if there's eye contact.
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,277
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Post by Push R Truth on Apr 19, 2014 6:54:15 GMT -5
Sexual harassment or not, the sure thing is that's totally GAY! Has JBL been the Serious Gay Wrestler the world has been clamoring for all these years?
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Apr 19, 2014 7:00:34 GMT -5
"BLACK HELICOPTERS MAGGLE"
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Captain2
Don Corleone
Big Daddy Cool
Posts: 1,990
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Post by Captain2 on Apr 19, 2014 7:02:45 GMT -5
Didn't JBL or Finlay leave Khali crying in a shower or something? No, that was on a pinball machine.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 19, 2014 7:34:12 GMT -5
This whole "paying dues/earning respect" bullshit that WWE's locker room seems to operate just strikes me as akin to prison sexuality.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Apr 19, 2014 7:36:44 GMT -5
I would of liked to see him try doing that to Brock Lesnar or Ken Shamrock.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Apr 19, 2014 7:47:03 GMT -5
Fraternistic initiations have and always will involve things that outside of its own context would look appalling to the outside world. If you want to apply 'real world' scenarios and consequences to such situations then you'd need to be consistent with it and insist that every big brother who rubs his knuckles on the head of his younger sibling be charged with assault - as that's what it is within the context of 'if he did that to a stranger/outside' etc.
Lines and boundaries when it comes to initiation or family or any other ritual or activity within a group are often different to the outside. If someone poured beer on your head in the street it's assault, if they poured beer on your head as part of an initiation ceremony to get into the football team - it isn't.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,278
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Post by The Ichi on Apr 19, 2014 7:53:26 GMT -5
I really hope the story of Steve Blackman knocking JBL out once is true.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 19, 2014 8:24:25 GMT -5
I liked Bad News Brown's take on the whole situation of locker room antics
"I don't rib anyone. No one will rib me. If they do, they'll have a problem"
Sounds reasonable.
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