Why is Tapping out so Stigmatized?

[Crimson]

And this is referring to both the Company and the Audience alike. Why is tapping out treated like it's such a cowardly action? In a time where the company has become more influenced by the rise of MMA, tapping out is still treated like disgrace. Pretty much every major face (Cena, Sheamus, even Punk during his run) never tapped out (Punk had one exception with that screwy finish in his match with Bryan).

[Deleted]

Because it's "giving up."

I think the easy workaround is to just have people pass out from the pain. Instead of tapping out, the ref sees the guy isn't moving and waggles his arms. Suddenly the bell rings, submission win, and so on.

[molson5]

It's not as stigmatized as submitting was back in the day. I can't remember many midcard or higher babyfaces submitting in the WWF between around 1986 and 2003. I think it's more prevalent now than it's ever been.

[abjordans]

Because Stone Cold passed out,if you don't do that you are a little B word.

[evilhomer]

Apr 19, 2014 1:36:12 GMT -5 abjordans said:

Because Stone Cold passed out,if you don't do that you are a little B word.

They took this iconic moment and turned it into just another thing that everyone does.

[Boo!]

I hate tapping out and wish they'd reintroduce formal submission. Saying "I give up" is far more an emasculating experience for a heel than the act of tapping on the floor. It also leads to an unfortunate situation a lot of the time where the person in the submission manoeuvre is motionless. They SHOULD be banging on the floor in pain, but instead a lot of the time they're just...there, because doing that would look to similar to actually tapping out.

That's why "I Quit" matches mean more and would mean more than a "Tap" match. The act of verbalising your surrender is much more meaningful.

[Deleted]

Apr 19, 2014 1:52:11 GMT -5 Boo! said:

I hate tapping out and wish they'd reintroduce formal submission. Saying "I give up" is far more an emasculating experience for a heel than the act of tapping on the floor. It also leads to an unfortunate situation a lot of the time where the person in the submission manoeuvre is motionless. They SHOULD be banging on the floor in pain, but instead a lot of the time they're just...there, because doing that would look to similar to actually tapping out.

That's why "I Quit" matches mean more and would mean more than a "Tap" match. The act of verbalising your surrender is much more meaningful.

Tapping out gives the crowd something to see.

[Starshine]

Tapping out should be presented as a guy preserving his career by preventing further injury. There shouldn't be any shame in it considering these guys have to stay as healthy as possible.

IMO the worst offence of it was Sheamus not submitting to Bryan in his 2 out of 3 falls match to go down a fall. Instead he held on until he passed out. Seriously, how f***ing dumb is that on a kayfabe level? Don't tap out and risk looking like a pussy (right McMahon?), no, get completely knocked out and go into your the last fall in an even worse condition.

[Deleted]

There might not be anything that bugs me more in wrestling than this. If Daniel Bryan gets you in the Yes Lock and you don't tap, well, you've now got a broken shoulder. Congratulations for being kind of an idiot. Honestly, I'd like to see the entire way wrestling treats submissions change. Treat them with the danger they should be treated, don't have guys fighting to the ropes in holds that would snap something in a few seconds (Del Rio's armbar being a prime example) and make the struggle about AVOIDING being put in the hold instead of making it so easy to escape.

[Boo!]

Why don't wrestlers just hulk up? Seems simple enough. Did they not watch in the 80s?

[Sparvid]

Apr 19, 2014 1:36:10 GMT -5 molson5 said:

It's not as stigmatized as submitting was back in the day. I can't remember many midcard or higher babyfaces submitting in the WWF between around 1986 and 2003. I think it's more prevalent now than it's ever been.

Come to think of it, I was checking out Mick Foley's submission losses the other day:

When he was a jobber in the mid-80's.
Making himself pass out from the Mandible Claw against Shamrock.
Not tapping to the sharpshooter at Survivor Series 98.
The "suspicious" ending to the I Quit match at Royal Rumble 99.
Losing the I Quit match against Flair when Melina got involved.
Finally tapping to the Ankle Lock in TNA.

[pepsitwist]

They should do more injury angles with submissions - it makes the moves feel all the more deadly. It's pretty embarrassing to watch guys tap out to a poorly applied STF or Figure-Four leg lock seconds after being applied. I do not buy it as a finish.

I'd rather see more submission finishes as long as the submission suspends my disbelief that it will legitimately hurt the opponent more if they refuse to tap out.

[KobashiChop]

It's so annoying, especially having gotten into MMA in 2005 and seeing the way that submission is treated in wrestling by comparison. Punk brought a great point up on commentary about tapping to the Yes Lock at Over the Limit. Its better to give up there than to sit out for 6 months with injury.

[Deleted]

Because we've been taught since the 80s, if you fight out of a submission maneuver, you're a real man. If you give up, you're a coward or a weakling, and have no business in a ring.

Dumb, dumb logic.

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

Because being pinned can be from losing consciousness. It's an unwilling act, you can get knocked out and get pinned, or the other guy can simply get lucky. It doesn't make you necessarily a weaker man. Tapping out though? That's you saying 'I give up, because you are hurting me too much for me to continue.'

[Piccolo]

Apr 19, 2014 6:50:05 GMT -5 "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay said:

Because being pinned can be from losing consciousness. It's an unwilling act, you can get knocked out and get pinned, or the other guy can simply get lucky. It doesn't make you necessarily a weaker man. Tapping out though? That's you saying 'I give up, because you are hurting me too much for me to continue.'

Not necessarily "hurting me too much," though, but "have gotten me into a no-win position in which my only options are finish this match and fight another day or get my arm broken and not fight again for another few months." Getting someone in a submission hold really should be treated as just as much a success as getting them in a pinning position... it's like, sure, while playing chess, someone hasn't ACTUALLY knocked off your king just because she's put you in checkmate. But since that's what's going to happen if you play another move, that's the end of the game. There's no need to actually get your arm broken, since this isn't life or death combat.

[Deleted]

For people saying it's dumb or bad logic: It's pro wrestling. Even in kayfabe, risking injury for a crucial match is something these guys just do. Otherwise, gimmick matches like HIAC and TLC wouldn't exist

Not to mention, a submission finish is probably the cleanest win you can possibly get in a normal match. Pins? People get lucky pins all the time, even without interference. Count-outs? Generally those are matters of circumstance. DQs? Heh, we all know those never make for definitive victories.

But a submission is the most humiliating way for the loser to go out, simply because there's less of a way to brush it off. He grabbed you and stretched you out until you couldn't take it anymore. Sorry, but he's just plain better than you!

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

Apr 19, 2014 7:20:48 GMT -5 Piccolo said:

Apr 19, 2014 6:50:05 GMT -5 "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay said:

Because being pinned can be from losing consciousness. It's an unwilling act, you can get knocked out and get pinned, or the other guy can simply get lucky. It doesn't make you necessarily a weaker man. Tapping out though? That's you saying 'I give up, because you are hurting me too much for me to continue.'

Not necessarily "hurting me too much," though, but "have gotten me into a no-win position in which my only options are finish this match and fight another day or get my arm broken and not fight again for another few months." Getting someone in a submission hold really should be treated as just as much a success as getting them in a pinning position... it's like, sure, while playing chess, someone hasn't ACTUALLY knocked off your king just because she's put you in checkmate. But since that's what's going to happen if you play another move, that's the end of the game. There's no need to actually get your arm broken, since this isn't life or death combat.

That follows real life logic but not wrestling logic. Wrestling logic is 'you have RKOed and molested my wife in front of 5 million people on TV and 20,000 in the arena, therefore we will have a technical wrestling match to settle the issue.'

You are thinking too deeply into this, and, sadly, too intelligently. Given that the crowd now tends to just chant 'you tapped out' at people regardless of alignment and popularity.

Babyfaces in wrestling put themselves at stupid risks. Under wrestling logic, it is 'more manly' to survive a submission hold and win a match with a broken arm or leg than to be intelligent and live to fight another day. Wrestling is high school. You're cool/face if you're dumb and strong. You're evil/heel if you're intelligent, because only a heel would think 'logically I should give up to avoid risk of injury.' A babyface would think 'I can't disappoint the little Hulkamaniacs.'

[Steveweiser]

I've always found the placement of a tapout interesting. One that stands out to me is Cena vs. Orton at Breaking Point in 2009. Almost as soon as Cena put the STF on, Orton tapped. He was portrayed as being a pussy at the first sense of pain, but to me, Orton was smart, as he knew Cena had it on tight, and that likely he'd get another title opportunity, which he did, so tapping out right away meant the STF didn't do too much damage to him, and hence quicker recovery down the road. Maybe if it was a one and done, Orton may have struggled with it longer.

Another way tapouts work for me is as a backup to "the virtual pinfall" - like when the ref's down, or can't see the submission, and the heel taps, it gives the babyface a major out when he's eventually screwed.

["Gentleman" AJ Powell]

Apr 19, 2014 6:05:18 GMT -5 KobashiChop said:

It's so annoying, especially having gotten into MMA in 2005 and seeing the way that submission is treated in wrestling by comparison. Punk brought a great point up on commentary about tapping to the Yes Lock at Over the Limit. Its better to give up there than to sit out for 6 months with injury.

This. They should have an angle where someone, perhaps Bryan or Lesnar is injuring people with their submission because folks refuse to tap, play up that sometimes you've gotta know that you can't fight out and accept defeat. Self preservation, living to fight another day and all that jazz.