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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on May 1, 2014 13:21:36 GMT -5
Bret was willing to make the changes in character, and IMO did the best work of his career as arguably a justifiably embittered villain to America/hero to the rest of the world. Cena won't. Or WWE won't. And Bret's heel turn was not his idea.
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Post by rowdy426 on May 1, 2014 13:21:33 GMT -5
So he's going to sign a TNA contract as active WWE champion and have to get screwed out of the title because he refused to lose in Massachusetts? Bret refused to lose in Canada, it wasn't Calgary, his home city; by that logic, Cena would be refusing to job in the U.S., not just Massachusetts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2014 14:09:47 GMT -5
Half, and on nights more than that, boo you more than the top heels. They wanted you to get your ass kicked by three guys, they voted for that to happen. The crowd cheered when you announced that you were injured and were having surgery. For the top babyface in the company... This is bad, real bad... Michael Jackson.
A change needs to happen.
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Post by Hit Girl on May 1, 2014 14:14:37 GMT -5
Bret was willing to make the changes in character, and IMO did the best work of his career as arguably a justifiably embittered villain to America/hero to the rest of the world. Cena won't. Or WWE won't. And Bret's heel turn was not his idea. WWE/Cena Same thing
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Post by thegame415 on May 1, 2014 14:25:57 GMT -5
Can't they just make Cena's character a little darker, without turning him heel? To be honest, he's been a lot less goofy since returning from his injury. Aside from a few corny jokes, it's nowhere near as bad as it was a few years ago.
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Post by Macho Pichu on May 1, 2014 14:39:58 GMT -5
So he's going to sign a TNA contract as active WWE champion and have to get screwed out of the title because he refused to lose in Massachusetts? Bret refused to lose in Canada, it wasn't Calgary, his home city; by that logic, Cena would be refusing to job in the U.S., not just Massachusetts. I get that, but I changed it to be a little more realistic since 90% of all WWE shows are in the US. They're in Canada maybe a handful of times a year, so that's why Bret gets a whole country whereas Cena just gets a single state.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2014 14:57:33 GMT -5
Cena's boners finally make sense!
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on May 1, 2014 14:59:52 GMT -5
Seriously, how does making WWE full of shades of grey and anti heroes and whatnot instantly translate into a compelling product? It's not even a Cena thing, Bryan's a huge white meat babyface and is massively over, so it can still work. The only reason it doesn't work with Cena is because he's been on top for a decade and fans have seen him in that position and doing that act for too long. Remember how ten years ago his toilet humor wasn't much of an issue? "JBL is Poopy" is what really started the Cena hate, so I'd say the toilet humor has always been a source of dislike.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on May 1, 2014 15:03:34 GMT -5
Seriously, how does making WWE full of shades of grey and anti heroes and whatnot instantly translate into a compelling product? It's not even a Cena thing, Bryan's a huge white meat babyface and is massively over, so it can still work. The only reason it doesn't work with Cena is because he's been on top for a decade and fans have seen him in that position and doing that act for too long. Remember how ten years ago his toilet humor wasn't much of an issue? "JBL is Poopy" is what really started the Cena hate, so I'd say the toilet humor has always been a source of dislike. That was like two or three years into Cena's main event run (he and Cryme Tyme had a feud with JBL during the "Raw is Anarchy" story).
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on May 1, 2014 15:03:43 GMT -5
Seriously, how does making WWE full of shades of grey and anti heroes and whatnot instantly translate into a compelling product? It's not even a Cena thing, Bryan's a huge white meat babyface and is massively over, so it can still work. The only reason it doesn't work with Cena is because he's been on top for a decade and fans have seen him in that position and doing that act for too long. Remember how ten years ago his toilet humor wasn't much of an issue? "JBL is Poopy" is what really started the Cena hate, so I'd say the toilet humor has always been a source of dislike. Maybe, but that doesn't answer my first question.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on May 1, 2014 15:13:45 GMT -5
"JBL is Poopy" is what really started the Cena hate, so I'd say the toilet humor has always been a source of dislike. Maybe, but that doesn't answer my first question. To answer the first question, it doesn't. I think people are mistaking genuine characters who feel authentic for anti-heroes, due to the fact that Austin is the first example many can think of as a genuine character who worked. True-blue babyfaces can work if they feel authentic rather than forced. Bret Hart in the 90's is a prime example, as is Daniel Bryan today. They don't feel phony, so people get on board with them. It just happens that a lot of times, people prefer the anti-hero characters because they react to situations a lot more realistically than guys like Cena. If you keep John Cena a good guy, and keep his moral compass completely intact, he can still be a compelling and well liked character if he'd just drop the goofball phony crap. The shouting of silly nonsense in promos, that's the number one thing that has to go if they want to keep Cena a babyface without getting him booed against every heel who comes down the pike.
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Post by The Beast Disincarnate on May 1, 2014 15:16:33 GMT -5
People can't wait for him to turn heel so they can cheer for him again.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on May 1, 2014 15:19:50 GMT -5
Seriously, how does making WWE full of shades of grey and anti heroes and whatnot instantly translate into a compelling product? It's not even a Cena thing, Bryan's a huge white meat babyface and is massively over, so it can still work. The only reason it doesn't work with Cena is because he's been on top for a decade and fans have seen him in that position and doing that act for too long. Remember how ten years ago his toilet humor wasn't much of an issue? Because culture is cyclical and evolves over time. The 80s was about flashy displays of patriotism and glory, so 80s wrestling faces were unambiguously good guys who always cried at the sight of an American flag. The 90s was a time of disillusionment and cynicism about the neon hypocrisy of the 80s, and so our heroes became darker, more complex and harder to place. Steve Austin was the everyman railing against his boss, The Rock was kind of a dick but he was just so cool about it. 9/11 caused a really weird effect where we wanted heroes to be heroes again, but they had to be more grounded in reality. The 80s superheroes were a distant thing of the past, but antiheroes didn't really fit either. So we got Cena, who could give the kids hope and exist in a weird spot when quite frankly pop culture was in a weird spot. This isn't just wrestling; you can find this progression in pretty much any form of media. Now we're in something new. Pop culture is shifting again, and with it go our narratives. If it's time to get ambiguous again, then doing so will keep them in a good place. Internet saturation in their fanbase means a lot more smart fans, and they're playing into this; Cesaro is a heel who gets face pops, and they encourage it. The Shield are just so cool that it doesn't matter if Reigns is hitting his Superman punch on someone you like; you pop anyway. There'll always be room for conventional narrative roles, like Bryan as a heroic underdog and Triple H as the cackling villain, but adding complexity and the ability to tell different stories set in different levels of morality is what's going to keep things fresh as our culture demands something less clear-cut again.
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Post by Amazing Kitsune on May 1, 2014 15:21:16 GMT -5
Seriously, how does making WWE full of shades of grey and anti heroes and whatnot instantly translate into a compelling product? It's not even a Cena thing, Bryan's a huge white meat babyface and is massively over, so it can still work. The only reason it doesn't work with Cena is because he's been on top for a decade and fans have seen him in that position and doing that act for too long. Remember how ten years ago his toilet humor wasn't much of an issue? "JBL is Poopy" is what really started the Cena hate, so I'd say the toilet humor has always been a source of dislike. I'd argue Cena hate started shortly after he won his title. It was widely noticeable as soon as he feuded with Jericho at that year's SummerSlam. It became far, far worse when it became clear that the WWE was going to shove him down the audience's throat even though they didn't want him in that spot any longer and he wasn't skilled enough to be in that spot. Of course, maybe a year or so later he was the perfect guy for the spot. I'd argue he grew up at a performer during that first reign of his. I think some fans still resent the fact that he's there because he's seen as the WWE's handpicked guy rather than the guy who earned the spot. Agree or disagree with that as you want.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on May 1, 2014 15:32:39 GMT -5
Maybe, but that doesn't answer my first question. To answer the first question, it doesn't. I think people are mistaking genuine characters who feel authentic for anti-heroes, due to the fact that Austin is the first example many can think of as a genuine character who worked. True-blue babyfaces can work if they feel authentic rather than forced. Bret Hart in the 90's is a prime example, as is Daniel Bryan today. They don't feel phony, so people get on board with them. It just happens that a lot of times, people prefer the anti-hero characters because they react to situations a lot more realistically than guys like Cena. If you keep John Cena a good guy, and keep his moral compass completely intact, he can still be a compelling and well liked character if he'd just drop the goofball phony crap. The shouting of silly nonsense in promos, that's the number one thing that has to go if they want to keep Cena a babyface without getting him booed against every heel who comes down the pike. Maybe that's the thing with me, because if a character in another TV show reacted to things the same way Cena did, I probably wouldn't like them. Normally I love angsty heroes (preferably morally upright and generally nice heroes with angst. Spider-Man >>> Punisher) and I'd be irritated just as anyone else would be with any other main character that just blew serious situations off in lieu of a bad joke. But for whatever reason, not with Cena. John Cena the wrestler is just that good enough to override all of that. It's not like I've got a backwards brain where I want every protagonist to be totally infallible and act like nothing bothers them, and I'd still be a fan even if he was as nuanced and believable as so many fans want him to be. Were I in charge, I probably wouldn't write him exactly the way he's written now. But at the end of the day, after sitting through countless stupid storylines and idiotic character progressions well before he joined the main roster, wrestling just isn't a medium where I expect anything to make sense, so the general energy and magnetism of the wrestlers are how I become a fan of them. And no one in the company is better than him in that department in my eyes, not even Bryan, so I don't know what it would take for me to jump off of the Team Fruity boat. I honestly think he's twice as good as HBK ever was.
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spagett
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Post by spagett on May 1, 2014 15:52:15 GMT -5
To answer the first question, it doesn't. I think people are mistaking genuine characters who feel authentic for anti-heroes, due to the fact that Austin is the first example many can think of as a genuine character who worked. True-blue babyfaces can work if they feel authentic rather than forced. Bret Hart in the 90's is a prime example, as is Daniel Bryan today. They don't feel phony, so people get on board with them. It just happens that a lot of times, people prefer the anti-hero characters because they react to situations a lot more realistically than guys like Cena. If you keep John Cena a good guy, and keep his moral compass completely intact, he can still be a compelling and well liked character if he'd just drop the goofball phony crap. The shouting of silly nonsense in promos, that's the number one thing that has to go if they want to keep Cena a babyface without getting him booed against every heel who comes down the pike. Maybe that's the thing with me, because if a character in another TV show reacted to things the same way Cena did, I probably wouldn't like them. Normally I love angsty heroes (preferably morally upright and generally nice heroes with angst. Spider-Man >>> Punisher) and I'd be irritated just as anyone else would be with any other main character that just blew serious situations off in lieu of a bad joke. But for whatever reason, not with Cena. John Cena the wrestler is just that good enough to override all of that. It's not like I've got a backwards brain where I want every protagonist to be totally infallible and act like nothing bothers them, and I'd still be a fan even if he was as nuanced and believable as so many fans want him to be. Were I in charge, I probably wouldn't write him exactly the way he's written now. But at the end of the day, after sitting through countless stupid storylines and idiotic character progressions well before he joined the main roster, wrestling just isn't a medium where I expect anything to make sense, so the general energy and magnetism of the wrestlers are how I become a fan of them. And no one in the company is better than him in that department in my eyes, not even Bryan, so I don't know what it would take for me to jump off of the Team Fruity boat. I honestly think he's twice as good as HBK ever was. He's twice as good as HBK as an overall package or just in ring? He's certainly a much bigger star. Cena won't be turning heel anytime soon, they've teased angles where he might turn heel or freshen up his character for years and they never go through with it. I can see the similarities with Bret in 1997 but they won't ever turn him heel I don't think.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on May 1, 2014 15:59:17 GMT -5
Maybe that's the thing with me, because if a character in another TV show reacted to things the same way Cena did, I probably wouldn't like them. Normally I love angsty heroes (preferably morally upright and generally nice heroes with angst. Spider-Man >>> Punisher) and I'd be irritated just as anyone else would be with any other main character that just blew serious situations off in lieu of a bad joke. But for whatever reason, not with Cena. John Cena the wrestler is just that good enough to override all of that. It's not like I've got a backwards brain where I want every protagonist to be totally infallible and act like nothing bothers them, and I'd still be a fan even if he was as nuanced and believable as so many fans want him to be. Were I in charge, I probably wouldn't write him exactly the way he's written now. But at the end of the day, after sitting through countless stupid storylines and idiotic character progressions well before he joined the main roster, wrestling just isn't a medium where I expect anything to make sense, so the general energy and magnetism of the wrestlers are how I become a fan of them. And no one in the company is better than him in that department in my eyes, not even Bryan, so I don't know what it would take for me to jump off of the Team Fruity boat. I honestly think he's twice as good as HBK ever was. He's twice as good as HBK as an overall package or just in ring? He's certainly a much bigger star. Oh, package, easily a better package. The general flow of his voice during promos is way more captivating to me, and that says something because IMO HBK wasn't a slouch on the mic either. In ring wise, the only advantage I think Shawn had was that he was lighter and thus his bumps were more dynamic looking. When the script doesn't call for him to Hulk Up and stop selling, John makes his opponents look like they've killed him otherwise. I'm guessing that what he said in his Austin interview about how he'd love to make the younger talent look stronger wasn't just damage control.
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spagett
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Post by spagett on May 1, 2014 16:08:22 GMT -5
He's twice as good as HBK as an overall package or just in ring? He's certainly a much bigger star. Oh, package, easily a better package. The general flow of his voice during promos is way more captivating to me, and that says something because IMO HBK wasn't a slouch on the mic either. In ring wise, the only advantage I think Shawn had was that he was lighter and thus his bumps were more dynamic looking. When the script doesn't call for him to Hulk Up and stop selling, John makes his opponents look like they've killed him otherwise. I'm guessing that what he said in his Austin interview about how he'd love to make the younger talent look stronger wasn't just damage control. Hmmm you say script there as if Cena has no other choice but to Hulk up and win. That he's only following orders. The Nexus match finish at Summerslam was his idea by all accounts and it was awful, be hard to say that was the only time he's decided on that finish. I think Cena is a good wrestler and usually the bigger and more important the match the better he is. He's had his best matches in his most important matches which is a great compliment to him. That said I just can't fathom anyone thinking Cena is a better wrestler than HBK. It's your opinion and everything but yeah, I'm having difficulty understanding that.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on May 1, 2014 16:11:51 GMT -5
He's twice as good as HBK as an overall package or just in ring? He's certainly a much bigger star. Oh, package, easily a better package. The general flow of his voice during promos is way more captivating to me, and that says something because IMO HBK wasn't a slouch on the mic either. In ring wise, the only advantage I think Shawn had was that he was lighter and thus his bumps were more dynamic looking. When the script doesn't call for him to Hulk Up and stop selling, John makes his opponents look like they've killed him otherwise. I'm guessing that what he said in his Austin interview about how he'd love to make the younger talent look stronger wasn't just damage control. Michaels has a lot more advantages over Cena than just his weight. I'm not even trying to bash Cena here because he's put on some great freaking matches in the past couple of years, but Shawn Michaels is one of the best all-around wrestlers I've ever seen in my life.
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saintpat
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Post by saintpat on May 1, 2014 18:45:17 GMT -5
Cena's true Bret analogy is that he is a babyface to the marks/casuals and a heel to the smarks/IWC, just as Bret was a heel in the U.S. and a face outside the U.S. So he is a "shades of gray" tweener character. So Raw is gonna take place in the WWE merch aisle at K-Mart one week, and then Dave Meltzer's backyard the next? No, geographic boundaries don't mean what they once did: they got this thing called the internet now, and people from around the world can connect. But the principle is the same: Bret was cheered by one group of people and booed by another for playing the same character. Same with Cena. They just happen to be in the same arena now.
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