Unocal 76
King Koopa
Providing The Finest Oil
Posts: 12,687
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Post by Unocal 76 on Jun 5, 2014 23:29:08 GMT -5
I wanted to address, this revisionist history that's going on, that the early 1990s Bulls teams are now considered this mythical collection of superstars. Outside of Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen, the pre-retirement Bulls SUCKED. I cannot emphasize that point enough. Players three through 12 on those squads were horrendous. The third and fourth best players on those teams were Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong, two players who were career bench players or occasional fringe starters. The centers were stick-figure dunk targets like Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue and Stacey King. Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever because he dragged that collection of scrubs, cast-offs, and overall riff-raff to three consecutive NBA championships. No other player in the world could have taken those Bulls teams to back-to-back-to-back rings. And look at who he had to beat to win those championships. Showtime Lakers last hurrah- Magic/Worthy/Byron Scott/Sam Perkins/Divas A loaded Blazers team with Drexler/Porter/Kersey/Ainge/Buck Williams Barkley/Kevin Johnson/Ainge/Majerle/Tom Chambers Suns Not exactly the 2006-07 Cleveland Cavaliers. Put the 1993 Suns in a time machine and they could be playing the Heat in the 2014 NBA Finas. Jordan singlehandedly carried those guys over IMHO the best team to not win a title of the last 20 years.
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Post by psychokiller on Jun 5, 2014 23:33:57 GMT -5
If Lebron loses, he'll be 2-3 in the 5 NBA Finals he's played in. He'll never be considered a top 5 all time player with that Finals record.
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 16,767
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Post by BRV on Jun 5, 2014 23:34:46 GMT -5
This game's end is why Lebron will never be considered the best to me right now or ever. Kobe Bryant tears an Achilles tendon and is able to walk back to the bench. He limps, but he walks back. Lebron James suffers cramps and he has to be freaking carried to the bench. The End... Uh-oh, you're about to incur the wrath of the LeBronistas. You're not allowed to question LeBron James. Never mind the fact that every other player on the floor tonight had to deal with the exact same conditions, and LeBron was the only one to tap out down by two late in the fourth quarter, despite the fact that he is allegedly this model of physical dominance and fitness, yet this is the second time in three years that he's left a Finals game because of cramps. You're simply not allowed to question him. Prepare to be bombarded with comments about how it's impossible to move with a cramp, it's borderline paralyzing, that Michael Jordan was faking during the Flu Game, that it was never that hot in those stadiums and arenas without air conditioning in the early 80s...you name it, you'll hear it.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 5, 2014 23:38:39 GMT -5
If Lebron loses, he'll be 2-3 in the 5 NBA Finals he's played in. He'll never be considered a top 5 all time player with that Finals record. Yeah but one of those Finals losses was with an otherwise mediocre-at-best Cavs team that had no business getting that far to begin with. Lebron dragged them kicking and screaming into the Finals where they got their asses kicked. But just reaching the Finals with that team is an accomplishment and it's the closest I've ever seen to one player singlehandedly carrying a bad team to a championship.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Jun 5, 2014 23:43:29 GMT -5
If Lebron loses, he'll be 2-3 in the 5 NBA Finals he's played in. He'll never be considered a top 5 all time player with that Finals record. Yeah but one of those Finals losses was with an otherwise mediocre-at-best Cavs team that had no business getting that far to begin with. Lebron dragged them kicking and screaming into the Finals where they got their asses kicked. But just reaching the Finals with that team is an accomplishment and it's the closest I've ever seen to one player singlehandedly carrying a bad team to a championship. Yeah, but you make that up with this "I have to be carried to the bench because of cramps"
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suave
Dennis Stamp
"I only got on my knees for God and maybe to lick a girl's pussy" -Teddy Hart
Posts: 4,207
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Post by suave on Jun 5, 2014 23:45:35 GMT -5
I'm not saying this happened, but if we later find out that Pop ran the Spurs through 90+ temp every practice to get them used to the heat, and then got a ball boy to go and spill a soda on the AC control panel. I seem to remember Auerbach doing something like that, and it'd be an elaborate (and illegal, I believe) act of gamesmanship. So yeah, something Pop would do.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 5, 2014 23:46:48 GMT -5
Eh, let's not act like the series is lost. I think this is going to go to 7 games no matter who wins. Heat lost Game 1 last year too and it worked out for them.
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Unocal 76
King Koopa
Providing The Finest Oil
Posts: 12,687
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Post by Unocal 76 on Jun 5, 2014 23:47:11 GMT -5
Before anyone mentions the 2012 cramps, just remember that:
1. OKC didn't take advantage of this
2. He hit the big go-ahead shot that same game
Oh, and potentially 2-3 in the NBA Finals? You know who else had a 2-2 Finals record going into his 5th Finals? Magic Johnson.
We still revere Jerry West and he lost 2 straight Finals 3 times, including a threepeat of failure. He has 1 less ring.
Folks, not everyone can be Russell or Jordan. Magic Johnson lost 4 NBA Finals (swept twice), Bird lost twice, Kareem 3 times.
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vm88
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,252
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Post by vm88 on Jun 5, 2014 23:53:20 GMT -5
I'm not making any excuses for the Heat's performance in the last 7 minutes of the 4th Quarter. LeBron got hurt, the Heat's defense disappeared, and the Spurs made some key shots down the stretch. San Antonio did their job, now it's up to Miami to get LeBron healthy (I think he'll be fine) and to win game 2 on the road so that they can have the advantage for the series, just like they did with Indiana.
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 16,235
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Post by Renslayer on Jun 5, 2014 23:53:25 GMT -5
This game's end is why Lebron will never be considered the best to me right now or ever. Kobe Bryant tears an Achilles tendon and is able to walk back to the bench. He limps, but he walks back. Lebron James suffers cramps and he has to be freaking carried to the bench. The End... Uh-oh, you're about to incur the wrath of the LeBronistas. You're not allowed to question LeBron James. Never mind the fact that every other player on the floor tonight had to deal with the exact same conditions, and LeBron was the only one to tap out down by two late in the fourth quarter, despite the fact that he is allegedly this model of physical dominance and fitness, yet this is the second time in three years that he's left a Finals game because of cramps. You're simply not allowed to question him. Prepare to be bombarded with comments about how it's impossible to move with a cramp, it's borderline paralyzing, that Michael Jordan was faking during the Flu Game, that it was never that hot in those stadiums and arenas without air conditioning in the early 80s...you name it, you'll hear it. I'm not understanding this. World class athletes get cramps too & not everyone's body is the same.
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Post by britishbulldog on Jun 5, 2014 23:53:45 GMT -5
This game's end is why Lebron will never be considered the best to me right now or ever. Kobe Bryant tears an Achilles tendon and is able to walk back to the bench. He limps, but he walks back. Lebron James suffers cramps and he has to be freaking carried to the bench. The End... Michael Jordan gets the flu, throws up all day, scores 38 points that night. Please don't remind me of that night.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 5, 2014 23:59:03 GMT -5
Uh-oh, you're about to incur the wrath of the LeBronistas. You're not allowed to question LeBron James. Never mind the fact that every other player on the floor tonight had to deal with the exact same conditions, and LeBron was the only one to tap out down by two late in the fourth quarter, despite the fact that he is allegedly this model of physical dominance and fitness, yet this is the second time in three years that he's left a Finals game because of cramps. You're simply not allowed to question him. Prepare to be bombarded with comments about how it's impossible to move with a cramp, it's borderline paralyzing, that Michael Jordan was faking during the Flu Game, that it was never that hot in those stadiums and arenas without air conditioning in the early 80s...you name it, you'll hear it. I'm not understanding this. World class athletes get cramps too & not everyone's body is the same. I actually had a leg cramp before and it felt like I was going to die. I could barely move around without being in intense pain and nearly passed out the first day I had it a few times. It doesn't sound so bad on paper because when you think cramps you usually think stomach cramps which are an inconvenience at worst. But muscle cramps hurt like hell and yes, they can be paralyzing. Of course I'm hardly a world class athlete. Also the NFL comparison meme pic going around is pretty dumb considering most muscle cramps happen in hot weather. It's why you see so many NFL players leave the game with cramps in September and early October.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Jun 6, 2014 0:10:36 GMT -5
I'm not understanding this. World class athletes get cramps too & not everyone's body is the same. I actually had a leg cramp before and it felt like I was going to die. I could barely move around without being in intense pain and nearly passed out the first day I had it a few times. It doesn't sound so bad on paper because when you think cramps you usually think stomach cramps which are an inconvenience at worst. But muscle cramps hurt like hell and yes, they can be paralyzing. Of course I'm hardly a world class athlete. Also the NFL comparison meme pic going around is pretty dumb considering most muscle cramps happen in hot weather. It's why you see so many NFL players leave the game with cramps in September and early October. Dude...look at several of his contemporaries who played hurt or sick and if they couldn't, they left like men either limping away or having two guys at least help you limp to the bench. They didn't let others carry him to the bench. Lebron doesn't have the heart and to the person who said Kobe took a half of a game 7 off, you seem to forget the stuff Lebron had in his last game as a Cleveland Cavalier. I don't think Lebron has the heart to be considered the best. Oh and NFL players may leave the game, but guess what....they walk away.
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Post by Some Guy on Jun 6, 2014 0:19:08 GMT -5
Kobe isn't 6'8 260 pounds of brick shithouse trying to move in 90 degree heat. You want to sit there and defend the inferior player who happens to be a massive piece of shit, go ahead. I'll take LeBron all day every day, and one little incident where he can't move in conditions he's not even remotely used to won't change that.
By the way, Horace Grant with the Bulls > Chris Bosh right now, so don't give me that career bench player horse shit.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Jun 6, 2014 0:25:50 GMT -5
Kobe isn't 6'8 260 pounds of brick shithouse trying to move in 90 degree heat. You want to sit there and defend the inferior player who happens to be a massive piece of shit, go ahead. I'll take LeBron all day every day, and one little incident where he can't move in conditions he's not even remotely used to won't change that. By the way, Horace Grant with the Bulls > Chris Bosh right now, so don't give me that career bench player horse shit. You are in conditions you aren't used to dealing with, you adapt. Lebron couldn't adapt and he wasn't the only player in that game who had to deal with those conditions, but he was the only one to have to be carried to the bench because of those conditions and not a debilitating injury.
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Post by Some Guy on Jun 6, 2014 0:33:00 GMT -5
So what? Do you have any clue how his leg felt at all? No, you don't have a fraction of an idea. Players walk off with Torn ACLs and Achilles and so forth all the time because the injury doesn't completely hit them until later. LeBron could have been in debilitating pain (he clearly was) and getting up was too much for him. He has the most muscle mass of anyone on that court, and unlike Parker/Manu/so many others, he's not used to those conditions from International ball. Everyone should stop pretending like he is some pansy when they have absolutely no idea the pain he was dealing with.
And honestly, what is with the hate given on him? He's a FAR better person than Kobe or MJ, and he's certainly a better player than Kobe ever was. During MJ's first retirement, the Bulls lost TWO less games and were a lucky shot away from being in the Eastern Conference Finals. Kobe has never gone anywhere without an elite big man in front of him, and he was the best player in the Finals ONCE in his entire career.
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Post by Red Impact on Jun 6, 2014 0:34:35 GMT -5
Not sure if this was posted or not. Horace Grant: "Jordan's Bulls would've beat Lebron's Heat"Well, in Lebron's defense, Jordan did have Scottie, Horace, Paxson, BJ Armstrong, and Bill Cartright in his first three-peat. Then after he saved the Looney Tunes from being enslaved, he had Scottie, Rodman, Harper, Kukoc, Kerr, Longley, and Wellington for his second three-peat. So those Bulls teams were pretty loaded. Plus Michael Jordan is God, after all. I've been meaning to get to this, and your overall point was really what I wanted to address, this revisionist history that's going on, that the early 1990s Bulls teams are now considered this mythical collection of superstars. Outside of Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen, the pre-retirement Bulls SUCKED. I cannot emphasize that point enough. Players three through 12 on those squads were horrendous. The third and fourth best players on those teams were Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong, two players who were career bench players or occasional fringe starters. The centers were stick-figure dunk targets like Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue and Stacey King. Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever because he dragged that collection of scrubs, cast-offs, and overall riff-raff to three consecutive NBA championships. No other player in the world could have taken those Bulls teams to back-to-back-to-back rings. The talent Jordan had around him from 1996 through 1998 is different. There he was surrounded by players who actually could bring something to the table. But let's not pretend for one second that Grant, Armstrong, Cartwright, Perdue, King, Paxson, or anyone else on those early 90s Bulls team were any good. Horace Grant started in 90% of the games he played in, including after he left the Bulls. How is that being a fringe starter? Dude was a pretty good defender, not an elite, no, but he wouldn't have lasted as long as he did and play as much as he did if he sucked. Jordan and Pippen were so good that they didn't need guys with gaudy stat lines, they needed specialists to play certain roles, which is what they got. Those two averaged 50 a game, so Grant averaging 10 and Armstrong averaging 10 off the bench was fine. Just because these guys weren't hall of fame caliber players doesn't mean they completely sucked. They didn't drag the team down at all.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Jun 6, 2014 0:40:46 GMT -5
So what? Do you have any clue how his leg felt at all? No, you don't have a fraction of an idea. Players walk off with Torn ACLs and Achilles and so forth all the time because the injury doesn't completely hit them until later. LeBron could have been in debilitating pain (he clearly was) and getting up was too much for him. He has the most muscle mass of anyone on that court, and unlike Parker/Manu/so many others, he's not used to those conditions from International ball. Everyone should stop pretending like he is some pansy when they have absolutely no idea the pain he was dealing with. And honestly, what is with the hate given on him? He's a FAR better person than Kobe or MJ, and he's certainly a better player than Kobe ever was. During MJ's first retirement, the Bulls lost TWO less games and were a lucky shot away from being in the Eastern Conference Finals. Kobe has never gone anywhere without an elite big man in front of him, and he was the best player in the Finals ONCE in his entire career. On the Kobe has never gone anywhere without an elite big man, 1) Pau Gasol may be great, but he is not elite and 2) Lebron's in the same boat where he really needs he wasn't winning titles till he was with Wade and Bosh. Lebron may be a great player, but he isn't elite and to even consider him the greatest player ever is laughable. This isn't about being an elite person, this is about being an elite player and Lebron is not an elite player
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Post by Red Impact on Jun 6, 2014 0:44:35 GMT -5
To say Lebron isn't an elite player may be the most ludicrous statement in the history of the NBA.
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Post by Captain Patren Fenderbaum-X on Jun 6, 2014 0:45:27 GMT -5
As soon as I saw Lebron being carried out I busted out laughing because I was immediately taken back to the 08 finals where Paul Pierce was wheeled out and then "OH SO MIRACULOUSLY" made his way back to court like some damn hero not even 5min later.
But lebron don't need no stinkin wheelchair...his teammates are his wheelchair.
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