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Post by Racksman on Jul 12, 2014 10:58:45 GMT -5
Ok if I remember correctly....Lesnar was gonna be with heyman I think after injuring Ric Flair on his debut, Terry Funk was gonna beat the Undertaker on a fluke, and WCW would win the the feud on wrestlemania 18 so they could get their own show replacing smackdown (which was the original plan before buff-booker t debacle). The funny part is that 411mania gave the DVD a 10 out of 10. I wish I could find the Bob Holly meme for this, but that is why the Internet is Full of Shit. Especially, ESPECIALLY 411mania.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jul 12, 2014 11:21:10 GMT -5
I think that the main issue with Corny is that he would work better with talent, not creating storylines, on a wrestling documentary, about 3 guys that try out for ROH, Zema Ion was one of the 3, he digged Zema's gimmick, also gave him pointers that Ion used later. The man created Kane, he's not a good head coach, but he could be a great offensive coordinator
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 12, 2014 14:46:40 GMT -5
One thing I definitely appreciate about Cornette is that, end of the day, the question he asks is "will this make money?"
This doesn't mean all of his ideas are good, right, timely, or otherwise flawless; obviously every individual creative mind has its limitations and hang ups that might prevent it from being flexible enough to achieve sustained success, particularly in the modern pro wrestling landscape, where writers get burned out within half a year thanks to the ungodly amount of prime time TV there is.
Still, it feels so often like modern writers get hung up on wanting to amuse themselves, or to do unexpected things/swerves for the sake of simply having one, etc., and then they wonder why people don't necessarily flock to buy PPVs or buy tickets.
So while Cornette himself sometimes doesn't follow his own advice and gets caught in his own hang ups, the question of "will this draw?" or "will this get us a good gate/buyrate/etc.?" is one that really does need to be asked more often than it seems to be nowadays.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jul 12, 2014 14:54:23 GMT -5
Cornette was also quoted as saying, "f*** a Papa Dock, f*** a clock, f*** a trailer, f*** everybody! f*** ya'll if you doubt me. I'mma piece of f***ing white trash, I say it proudly!"
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
Posts: 15,296
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Post by Hawk Hart on Jul 12, 2014 15:13:54 GMT -5
Can someone give me a rundown of Jim's Invasion booking? I know there's been a few examples but I really wanna get the full picture of the angle here without lining Jumbo Jim's pockets.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jul 12, 2014 15:13:55 GMT -5
Cornette was also quoted as saying, "f*** a Papa Dock, f*** a clock, f*** a trailer, f*** everybody! f*** ya'll if you doubt me. I'mma piece of f***ing white trash, I say it proudly!" "And f*** this battle, I don't wanna win, I'm outty, Here, tell these people something they don't know about me." He then left the TNA head office, Russo choked out. Dutch Mantell played the Future character.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jul 12, 2014 15:28:03 GMT -5
Can someone give me a rundown of Jim's Invasion booking? I know there's been a few examples but I really wanna get the full picture of the angle here without lining Jumbo Jim's pockets. Ok I'll try, its been a couple of years...He started talking about that the reason we only got the jabronis, not Hogan or Flair or Nash, for the WCW side, was cause Vince couldn't afford to buy their contracts, that was the year of the XFL fiasco. He planned wrestlemania 18 in advance, the payoff was that if the Alliance won 6 matches (there were 10 I think) they would get their own TV show. He presented it as being a shoot, that the sides took liberties with each other on the ring, getting emts to carry the guys out, the weird part is that he booked Dusty and Terry Funk, it was old-new schoolish.
Another brain fart idea, was that he booked the Alliance as the babyfaces, he even had Bischoff betraying them and becoming Vince's lackey. Terry Funk was gonna work with Undertaker at wrestlemania, he said that in real life Taker would be ok with it (I don't think that'd be the case in 2002), Hogan with Jimmy Hart would wrestle Dusty at 60 something years old, Flair was gonna have a match with someone, but the stipulation was that if he won he'd get Bischoff for 5 minutes (another throwback).
The next night at Raw, Vince would open saying that the Alliance won only 5 matches, they were close but they're not getting the tv spot, Flair would come to the ring, he'd read the results from mania, and said something to the effect of "Yeah Vince, we only won 5 matches...but look at this thing right here, after I won my match I got 5 minutes with Bischoff, I beat him up, wouldn't you know that was number 6."
Then Smackdown would be called WCW or something and everybody lived happily ever after. This whole concept was just awkward, he's the opposite of Russo, in that he has the bigger picture figured out, but going week to week it was awful, it felt slow.
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
Posts: 15,296
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Post by Hawk Hart on Jul 12, 2014 15:43:56 GMT -5
Can someone give me a rundown of Jim's Invasion booking? I know there's been a few examples but I really wanna get the full picture of the angle here without lining Jumbo Jim's pockets. Ok I'll try, its been a couple of years...He started talking about that the reason we only got the jabronis, not Hogan or Flair or Nash, for the WCW side, was cause Vince couldn't afford to buy their contracts, that was the year of the XFL fiasco. He planned wrestlemania 18 in advance, the payoff was that if the Alliance won 6 matches (there were 10 I think) they would get their own TV show. He presented it as being a shoot, that the sides took liberties with each other on the ring, getting emts to carry the guys out, the weird part is that he booked Dusty and Terry Funk, it was old-new schoolish.
Another brain fart idea, was that he booked the Alliance as the babyfaces, he even had Bischoff betraying them and becoming Vince's lackey. Terry Funk was gonna work with Undertaker at wrestlemania, he said that in real life Taker would be ok with it (I don't think that'd be the case in 2002), Hogan with Jimmy Hart would wrestle Dusty at 60 something years old, Flair was gonna have a match with someone, but the stipulation was that if he won he'd get Bischoff for 5 minutes (another throwback).
The next night at Raw, Vince would open saying that the Alliance won only 5 matches, they were close but they're not getting the tv spot, Flair would come to the ring, he'd read the results from mania, and said something to the effect of "Yeah Vince, we only won 5 matches...but look at this thing right here, after I won my match I got 5 minutes with Bischoff, I beat him up, wouldn't you know that was number 6."
Then Smackdown would be called WCW or something and everybody lived happily ever after. This whole concept was just awkward, he's the opposite of Russo, in that he has the bigger picture figured out, but going week to week it was awful, it felt slow.
Wait, so a beatdown angle was gonna count as a match? Cornette is a crazy son of a bitch. He should love TNA with that kind of logic.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 12, 2014 15:45:42 GMT -5
Terry Funk vs Undertaker would only have been worth watching if Terry started stalking Sara
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
Posts: 7,011
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Post by nate5054 on Jul 12, 2014 15:53:37 GMT -5
Can't say that I disagree with much of what Cornette says, my problem is that he sucks at booking as well, IMO. My bigger problem with Cornette is that he bitches so much it's hard to take him seriously. Even if I agree with his ideas, I have the feeling he'd bitch about anything.
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Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
Posts: 7,951
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Post by Lancers on Jul 12, 2014 17:45:51 GMT -5
Cornette's rants are venturing into Iron Sheik territory where it almost feels like he says it because he thinks it's what people want to hear from him.
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Tony Schiavontay
Dennis Stamp
This is the greatest post in the history of this board!
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Post by Tony Schiavontay on Jul 12, 2014 17:59:37 GMT -5
Suddenly everything became a worked shoot and there was an MMA feel to everything because that gets him hard (see: Severn, Edwards, Richards). Terry Funk, while I love him, somehow was the main focal point of the whole thing. The Undertaker randomly reverted back to being the devil and was on his own side. And he extended it past Survivor Series and made it go all the way to WrestleMania 18...and had WCW win. So many questions. Why would WCW win? Why was Terry the focal point? Why would Lesnar be in the Alliance? Jim Cornette hadn't paid attention to anything WCW had done since 1989? Which, even in 1989, he was probably upset it wasn't like 1983 anymore.
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Post by thegame415 on Jul 12, 2014 20:32:00 GMT -5
I agree with you to some extent. But when WCW was at its peak with the NWO, that was pretty sports entertainment like. How so? Nobody was paying to see the NWO because of their work rate, or because they were a talented group of workers who were going to put on mat clinics. They bought it to see the gimmick. To see who was going to join next. To see what outrageous thing they would do next. It made wrestling seem real. Sports Entertainment doesn't have to be cartoonish.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jul 12, 2014 20:46:33 GMT -5
Cornette's rants are venturing into Iron Sheik territory where it almost feels like he says it because he thinks it's what people want to hear from him. I think that is my biggest issue with the whole thing, these podcasts, radio shows, shoot hosts or whatever are bringing Cornette in and setting him off knowing the coverage he gets on these rants and I think Cornette is in on the whole racket (pardon the pun). He can go out there, cuss out Russo, TNA or whatever the current "Evil" is to the enjoyment of the internet fan base and turn that into a few hundred sales of his newest book. His recent podcast with Austin was an amazing two shows with no talk of Russo, TNA, or anything current. I wish I could hear more of that James E. Cornette.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 12, 2014 20:53:09 GMT -5
Can someone give me a rundown of Jim's Invasion booking? I know there's been a few examples but I really wanna get the full picture of the angle here without lining Jumbo Jim's pockets. Ok I'll try, its been a couple of years...He started talking about that the reason we only got the jabronis, not Hogan or Flair or Nash, for the WCW side, was cause Vince couldn't afford to buy their contracts, that was the year of the XFL fiasco. He planned wrestlemania 18 in advance, the payoff was that if the Alliance won 6 matches (there were 10 I think) they would get their own TV show. He presented it as being a shoot, that the sides took liberties with each other on the ring, getting emts to carry the guys out, the weird part is that he booked Dusty and Terry Funk, it was old-new schoolish.
Another brain fart idea, was that he booked the Alliance as the babyfaces, he even had Bischoff betraying them and becoming Vince's lackey. Terry Funk was gonna work with Undertaker at wrestlemania, he said that in real life Taker would be ok with it (I don't think that'd be the case in 2002), Hogan with Jimmy Hart would wrestle Dusty at 60 something years old, Flair was gonna have a match with someone, but the stipulation was that if he won he'd get Bischoff for 5 minutes (another throwback).
The next night at Raw, Vince would open saying that the Alliance won only 5 matches, they were close but they're not getting the tv spot, Flair would come to the ring, he'd read the results from mania, and said something to the effect of "Yeah Vince, we only won 5 matches...but look at this thing right here, after I won my match I got 5 minutes with Bischoff, I beat him up, wouldn't you know that was number 6."
Then Smackdown would be called WCW or something and everybody lived happily ever after. This whole concept was just awkward, he's the opposite of Russo, in that he has the bigger picture figured out, but going week to week it was awful, it felt slow.
Wow! That sounds.... .... .... ...absolutely horrible and nowhere as good as the mess we actually got.
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Post by Ganon83 on Jul 12, 2014 21:05:19 GMT -5
I'll be honest, if it were 1992 and it was insane Terry Funk, I'd mark and watch it. The immortal zombie vs the cagey legend crazy enough to do ANYTHING to beat him? It would of been Mankind vs Taker 4 years early.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jul 13, 2014 6:47:13 GMT -5
One thing I definitely appreciate about Cornette is that, end of the day, the question he asks is "will this make money?" This doesn't mean all of his ideas are good, right, timely, or otherwise flawless; obviously every individual creative mind has its limitations and hang ups that might prevent it from being flexible enough to achieve sustained success, particularly in the modern pro wrestling landscape, where writers get burned out within half a year thanks to the ungodly amount of prime time TV there is. Still, it feels so often like modern writers get hung up on wanting to amuse themselves, or to do unexpected things/swerves for the sake of simply having one, etc., and then they wonder why people don't necessarily flock to buy PPVs or buy tickets. So while Cornette himself sometimes doesn't follow his own advice and gets caught in his own hang ups, the question of "will this draw?" or "will this get us a good gate/buyrate/etc.?" is one that really does need to be asked more often than it seems to be nowadays. While 'Will this make money' is a great question, I don't believe that Jim Cornette genuinely asks that unless he's in conflict with someone or doing a shoot interview. Where was the 'How will this make money' attitude when the WWF was booked by Watts, Prichard, Patterson and himself? They were putting guys like Mabel in the main event and slapping talented guys with dead end gimmicks that weren't ever going to make money and the company was circling the drain, but making money became a big issue once he saw himself being pushed aside as some of Russo's projects were getting over.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 13, 2014 9:54:47 GMT -5
One thing I definitely appreciate about Cornette is that, end of the day, the question he asks is "will this make money?" This doesn't mean all of his ideas are good, right, timely, or otherwise flawless; obviously every individual creative mind has its limitations and hang ups that might prevent it from being flexible enough to achieve sustained success, particularly in the modern pro wrestling landscape, where writers get burned out within half a year thanks to the ungodly amount of prime time TV there is. Still, it feels so often like modern writers get hung up on wanting to amuse themselves, or to do unexpected things/swerves for the sake of simply having one, etc., and then they wonder why people don't necessarily flock to buy PPVs or buy tickets. So while Cornette himself sometimes doesn't follow his own advice and gets caught in his own hang ups, the question of "will this draw?" or "will this get us a good gate/buyrate/etc.?" is one that really does need to be asked more often than it seems to be nowadays. While 'Will this make money' is a great question, I don't believe that Jim Cornette genuinely asks that unless he's in conflict with someone or doing a shoot interview. Where was the 'How will this make money' attitude when the WWF was booked by Watts, Prichard, Patterson and himself? They were putting guys like Mabel in the main event and slapping talented guys with dead end gimmicks that weren't ever going to make money and the company was circling the drain, but making money became a big issue once he saw himself being pushed aside as some of Russo's projects were getting over. Again, I didn't say all of his ideas throughout history have always worked. However, I think you're framing it wrong; yes, the mid 90s saw the WWF trot out a bunch I bad gimmicks and what have you, but that's not my point. My point is that "will this make money?" is usually Cornettes chief question and philosophy. That doesn't mean none of his ideas will outright suck (plenty of them have!), but it's the right philosophy to have.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jul 13, 2014 11:09:25 GMT -5
However, I think you're framing it wrong; yes, the mid 90s saw the WWF trot out a bunch I bad gimmicks and what have you, but that's not my point. My point is that "will this make money?" is usually Cornettes chief question and philosophy. That doesn't mean none of his ideas will outright suck (plenty of them have!), but it's the right philosophy to have. Looking back at periods he's booked, I'm no longer convinced that's his chief philosophy though. It seems to be something he uses to retroactively justify his dislike of others because it seems like a perfectly reasonable argument until you stop and look at his track record, then it starts to look like he's just as bad as the people he criticises as his primary concern from a booking standpoint is to recreate what got him into wrestling, no matter what. If his philosophy was truly about making money, he would have tried harder to adapt, he would have looked at what's working elsewhere and tried to change his booking style to integrate new ideas rather than pushing ahead with things doomed to failure and yelling at people when he can't get his own way. If he was the guy to ask 'How does this make money' then suggest ways to tweak the booking to make sure that it does, he would be an asset to any wrestling company that would have him, but that doesn't seem to be who he is. Asking 'how does this make money' means squat if you only ask it once you're on the outside looking in which seems to be his thing.
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Jul 13, 2014 11:27:24 GMT -5
Can someone give me a rundown of Jim's Invasion booking? I know there's been a few examples but I really wanna get the full picture of the angle here without lining Jumbo Jim's pockets. Ok I'll try, its been a couple of years...He started talking about that the reason we only got the jabronis, not Hogan or Flair or Nash, for the WCW side, was cause Vince couldn't afford to buy their contracts, that was the year of the XFL fiasco. He planned wrestlemania 18 in advance, the payoff was that if the Alliance won 6 matches (there were 10 I think) they would get their own TV show. He presented it as being a shoot, that the sides took liberties with each other on the ring, getting emts to carry the guys out, the weird part is that he booked Dusty and Terry Funk, it was old-new schoolish.
Another brain fart idea, was that he booked the Alliance as the babyfaces, he even had Bischoff betraying them and becoming Vince's lackey. Terry Funk was gonna work with Undertaker at wrestlemania, he said that in real life Taker would be ok with it (I don't think that'd be the case in 2002), Hogan with Jimmy Hart would wrestle Dusty at 60 something years old, Flair was gonna have a match with someone, but the stipulation was that if he won he'd get Bischoff for 5 minutes (another throwback).
The next night at Raw, Vince would open saying that the Alliance won only 5 matches, they were close but they're not getting the tv spot, Flair would come to the ring, he'd read the results from mania, and said something to the effect of "Yeah Vince, we only won 5 matches...but look at this thing right here, after I won my match I got 5 minutes with Bischoff, I beat him up, wouldn't you know that was number 6."
Then Smackdown would be called WCW or something and everybody lived happily ever after. This whole concept was just awkward, he's the opposite of Russo, in that he has the bigger picture figured out, but going week to week it was awful, it felt slow.
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