Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Jul 9, 2014 13:08:01 GMT -5
... have all made a profit. Plus is it fair to include WWE films as an extension. If we do that should we include the XFL or WBF? I'm not arguing with either of you. I just think it's important to remember that box office returns don't include dvd sells and rentals where WWE movies make a profit. Note this doesn't include The Call which despite being a poor Halle Berry movie was a success.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jul 9, 2014 13:18:24 GMT -5
]Why would they give up on Orton, though? They made the guy one of the biggest stars in wrestling, and he's right there. Why wouldn't you continue to use him as a main eventer? Sin Cara's faults made it impossible to stick with him, he was a liability. We're losing the point of the conversation here. You're calling Randy Orton one of the biggest busts in WWE history. Orton is like a 1st round draft pick. They wanted him to be a main eventer, and he has filled that role for 10 years now, while staying over and doing quality work (sometimes uninspired, sometimes amazing, always solid). Meanwhile, Sin Cara was pegged as Rey Mysterio's successor and as a big draw for the Latino fanbase. He was like a 1st round pick himself. They wanted so, so badly for Sin Cara to work. He lasted 2-3 crappy years and got bodyswapped. Sin Cara is a bigger bust, based on all measureables. My reasoning for picking Randy Orton as one of the biggest busts is this: a main eventer is supposed to be the marquee name, someone you advertise as being at a show to attract fans, like Cena and others. They have carefully groomed Randy Orton for that role for 10 years, giving him chance after chance to prove himself and become a star, they've had him work with some of the biggest names of all time and he just isn't the attraction that he should be at this point in time. He's a main eventer now because that's the place on the card where they book him to be, not because people desire to see him there which is the whole point of a guy being in the main event. We're 10 years on since he first appeared in a main event, nearly 60 main events later and Randy Orton is still not a guy you can say many in the audience are paying to see, so his pushes have failed and a lot of that effort would have been better spent trying to get other people over. The effort to get Orton to where he is, a placeholder main event player, is multiple times that which went into the pushes of Lord Tensai and Sin Cara.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 13:30:59 GMT -5
]Why would they give up on Orton, though? They made the guy one of the biggest stars in wrestling, and he's right there. Why wouldn't you continue to use him as a main eventer? Sin Cara's faults made it impossible to stick with him, he was a liability. We're losing the point of the conversation here. You're calling Randy Orton one of the biggest busts in WWE history. Orton is like a 1st round draft pick. They wanted him to be a main eventer, and he has filled that role for 10 years now, while staying over and doing quality work (sometimes uninspired, sometimes amazing, always solid). Meanwhile, Sin Cara was pegged as Rey Mysterio's successor and as a big draw for the Latino fanbase. He was like a 1st round pick himself. They wanted so, so badly for Sin Cara to work. He lasted 2-3 crappy years and got bodyswapped. Sin Cara is a bigger bust, based on all measureables. Look, my reasoning for picking Randy Orton as one of the biggest busts is this: a main eventer is supposed to be the marquee name, someone you advertise as being at a show to attract fans like Cena and others. They have carefully groomed Randy Orton for that role for 10 years, giving him chance after chance to prove himself and become a star, they've had him work with some of the biggest names of all time and he just isn't the attraction that he should be at this point in time. He's a main eventer now because that's the place on the card where they book him to be, not because people desire to see him there which is the whole point of a guy being in the main event. We're 10 years on since he first appeared in a main event, nearly 60 main events later and Randy Orton is still not a guy you can say many in the audience are paying to see, so his pushes have failed and a lot of that effort would have been better spent trying to get other people over. The effort to get Orton to where he is, a placeholder main event player, is multiple times that which went into the pushes of Lord Tensai and Sin Cara. I understand your reasoning, I just find it flawed and think your arguments continue to miss the point of what a "bust" is. I live in Cleveland, okay, I know a bust when I see one! Sin Cara is basically Tim Couch in a luchador mask. Anyways, it appears we fundamentally disagree. It's all good.
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ToyfareMark
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Post by ToyfareMark on Jul 9, 2014 13:32:27 GMT -5
Outback Jack has to be up there considering what they expected of him, and how things turned out.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jul 9, 2014 13:40:55 GMT -5
I understand your reasoning, I just find it flawed and think your arguments continue to miss the point of what a "bust" is. I live in Cleveland, okay, I know a bust when I see one! Sin Cara is basically Tim Couch in a luchador mask. Anyways, it appears we fundamentally disagree. It's all good. Aye, we're going to have to agree to disagree, I think they got a payoff from Sin Cara because it got them a lot of media attention in Mexico and he sold a load of merch while they're get to see a significant return on what they've put into Orton over a longer period... Only the WWE knows for sure.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 9, 2014 13:42:17 GMT -5
Sin Cara was never going to rise much further than he did anyway. A mute wrestler is not much use.
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Post by cabbageboy on Jul 9, 2014 14:08:11 GMT -5
I've trashed Lesnar on here in the past, but even I wouldn't call him the biggest bust in WWE history. Maybe his 2012-present run has helped his standing but truth be told I felt Brock had largely plateaued during his initial run anyway and leaving only made him more in demand (UFC, Japan, speculation of a WWE return).
I have no idea why anyone thought Sin Cara would be a huge deal. WWE has a dubious track record of pushing lucha guys anyway, especially ones who can't speak English. I had no real expectations so to me he wasn't that much of a flop. In regards to Kharma, she wasn't really around long enough to even register as a flop.
I might actually go with Bobby Lashley here. I actually did like the guy and am still puzzled as to what happened to him in WWE. He got a solid push in 2006, a major push in 2007, and then got hurt and was released. I dunno what the deal was with Kristal Marshall and Michael Hayes, but I remember Lashley wanting out over something involving Hayes and Kristal. Either way I think WWE could have gotten far more out of Lashley.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 9, 2014 14:16:03 GMT -5
I've trashed Lesnar on here in the past, but even I wouldn't call him the biggest bust in WWE history. Maybe his 2012-present run has helped his standing but truth be told I felt Brock had largely plateaued during his initial run anyway and leaving only made him more in demand (UFC, Japan, speculation of a WWE return). I have no idea why anyone thought Sin Cara would be a huge deal. WWE has a dubious track record of pushing lucha guys anyway, especially ones who can't speak English. I had no real expectations so to me he wasn't that much of a flop. In regards to Kharma, she wasn't really around long enough to even register as a flop. I might actually go with Bobby Lashley here. I actually did like the guy and am still puzzled as to what happened to him in WWE. He got a solid push in 2006, a major push in 2007, and then got hurt and was released. I dunno what the deal was with Kristal Marshall and Michael Hayes, but I remember Lashley wanting out over something involving Hayes and Kristal. Either way I think WWE could have gotten far more out of Lashley. I think Kristal was supposed to be Edge's lover and she quit the company in protest to that angle. Lashley followed her out. I do agree that he could've been more.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jul 9, 2014 14:27:34 GMT -5
JR's boy, Dr. Death. He was brought in because they knew he would win a shoot toughman competition, the Brawl-For-All, and then use this newfound badass legitimacy to feud with Steve Austin during arguably the hottest point in wrestling history. They were so confident in him that they allegedly paid him the winner's purse for the Brawl-For-All before the tournament ever even began. He was then knocked out by Bart Gunn and only used one or two other times afterwards. Maybe not the biggest bust of all time from a pure money standpoint, but one of the biggest when you consider just how high their expectations were. Exactly who I was coming in to say. Everyone else eventually brought a return on their investment (Well not Nathan Jones) but they got nothing out of Dr. Death.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jul 9, 2014 14:29:31 GMT -5
JR's boy, Dr. Death. He was brought in because they knew he would win a shoot toughman competition, the Brawl-For-All, and then use this newfound badass legitimacy to feud with Steve Austin during arguably the hottest point in wrestling history. They were so confident in him that they allegedly paid him the winner's purse for the Brawl-For-All before the tournament ever even began. He was then knocked out by Bart Gunn and only used one or two other times afterwards. Maybe not the biggest bust of all time from a pure money standpoint, but one of the biggest when you consider just how high their expectations were. From what I remember he wasn't specifically brought in for it. But it did flat out kill his heat and his WWF career.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 9, 2014 14:38:55 GMT -5
Whatever came of that Rocky Maivia dork? Last I heard he was a stunt double in the new Hercules.
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Post by Captain & Diet on Jul 9, 2014 14:43:41 GMT -5
What about the Gooker?
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tms
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Post by tms on Jul 9, 2014 16:48:20 GMT -5
I know it goes without saying, but Lawler in general couldn't be any sleazier if he tried.
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Post by James Fabiano on Jul 9, 2014 17:40:42 GMT -5
Sin Cara was never going to rise much further than he did anyway. A mute wrestler is not much use. If he did the interpretive dance routine from the Scooby cartoon, he would have gotten over. (Okay, I meant I would be entertained, but....) Yeah, Outback Jack anyone? Based on the similar attention he got with vignettes, Beaver Cleavage? Someone said Dr. Death getting KOed by Bart Gunn. How about BART GUNN himself? Brakus? The bust that didn't make it to TV, even..."Megaman" Tom Magee?
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Post by Dave the Dave on Jul 9, 2014 17:43:40 GMT -5
Whom ever called Ryback a bust....ugh.
Getting your kegs cut out from under you isn't a bust the likes of Jones or Cara.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 17:50:58 GMT -5
Whom ever called Ryback a bust....ugh. Getting your kegs cut out from under you isn't a bust the likes of Jones or Cara. Exactly...Ryback was fed to the Shield to get them over because he was the most convenient fall guy. Far as WWE was concerned, if that killed his heat, oh well You want a wrestler who turned out to be a bust though? Heidenreich.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 9, 2014 17:52:04 GMT -5
Whom ever called Ryback a bust....ugh. Getting your kegs cut out from under you isn't a bust the likes of Jones or Cara. There's nothing in "bust" that implies it wasn't the company's fault. (Though I agree that Ryback shouldn't even be in the conversation.) Along similar lines, this guy was hardly a huge bomb, but in terms of people that they clearly assumed were going to be huge and never really were, the name that comes to my mind is Al Snow. They clearly had very high hopes for him at first and then it petered out.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Jul 9, 2014 17:57:18 GMT -5
Whom ever called Ryback a bust....ugh. Getting your kegs cut out from under you isn't a bust the likes of Jones or Cara. There's nothing in "bust" that implies it wasn't the company's fault. (Though I agree that Ryback shouldn't even be in the conversation.) Along similar lines, this guy was hardly a huge bomb, but in terms of people that they clearly assumed were going to be huge and never really were, the name that comes to my mind is Al Snow. They clearly had very high hopes for him at first and then it petered out. I don't know if I agree about the definition, but we agree on Ryback so cool.
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ToyfareMark
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Post by ToyfareMark on Jul 9, 2014 18:00:19 GMT -5
Bam Bam Bigelow's initial push in 1987 could also be a candidate. They seemed to have BIG plans for him back then. He was constantly teaming with Hogan, had alot of focus. Then he has that countout loss at WM 4, and then disappears for 5 years.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Jul 9, 2014 18:02:43 GMT -5
Sin Cara was never going to rise much further than he did anyway. A mute wrestler is not much use. If he did the interpretive dance routine from the Scooby cartoon, he would have gotten over. (Okay, I meant I would be entertained, but....) Yeah, Outback Jack anyone? Based on the similar attention he got with vignettes, Beaver Cleavage? Someone said Dr. Death getting KOed by Bart Gunn. How about BART GUNN himself? Brakus? The bust that didn't make it to TV, even..."Megaman" Tom Magee? He better come with a mega buster and energy tanks or I'm going to be very disappointed.
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