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Post by joeiscool on Jul 22, 2014 21:14:38 GMT -5
I'm saying this is the product WWE is going to give you in normal PPVS. You either like it or you don't. You don't have to like anything, but you should expect it, because that's what they have been doing for so long. It might be bad business for them to do it, they might need re think it, but there is no reason why you should be expecting much more than what we got from other normal ppvs. That is my point. But again, you're wrong. People liked the post-Mania shows for the most part so this idea that this is the norm we have to expect is, wait for it, WRONG. On top of that, no one ever has to accept things just because you think it is the norm and been done forever and day despite that not being the case. You're completely wrong on everything. I'm not saying you should accept it. You can never watch wwe programming for the rest of your life for all I care. I'm just saying this just seems like the normal wwe ppv cycle.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jul 22, 2014 21:17:02 GMT -5
But again, you're wrong. People liked the post-Mania shows for the most part so this idea that this is the norm we have to expect is, wait for it, WRONG. On top of that, no one ever has to accept things just because you think it is the norm and been done forever and day despite that not being the case. You're completely wrong on everything. Money in the bank would have been a normal ppv if DB hadn't gotten hurt. The main event would have been DB vs kane... I mean come on. Or it would have been Bryan defending his title MITB, no one outside of WWE knows and to act like things that didn't happen matters doesn't cut it. The core of your argument has been "People don't like Battleground because they expected something that doesn't happen" and it has been shown time and again that you have nothing to stand on. You are wrong in every possible way. No amount of "well..well...well" or "but...but...but" will change that your idea that people who did not enjoy the Battleground PPV need to change or reevaluate their viewing habits is completely wrong.
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Post by joeiscool on Jul 22, 2014 21:24:35 GMT -5
Money in the bank would have been a normal ppv if DB hadn't gotten hurt. The main event would have been DB vs kane... I mean come on. Or it would have been Bryan defending his title MITB, no one outside of WWE knows and to act like things that didn't happen matters doesn't cut it. uhh.... Did you not watch the raws leading up to DB giving the title up?
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Post by joeiscool on Jul 22, 2014 21:30:31 GMT -5
Money in the bank would have been a normal ppv if DB hadn't gotten hurt. The main event would have been DB vs kane... I mean come on. Or it would have been Bryan defending his title MITB, no one outside of WWE knows and to act like things that didn't happen matters doesn't cut it. The core of your argument has been "People don't like Battleground because they expected something that doesn't happen" and it has been shown time and again that you have nothing to stand on. You are wrong in every possible way. No amount of "well..well...well" or "but...but...but" will change that your idea that people who did not enjoy the Battleground PPV need to change or reevaluate their viewing habits is completely wrong. What doesn't normally happen? Cena doesn't win? Bray Watt Doesn't lose? Rusev doesn't win? heck even last Battle Ground the main event ended in a no contest..
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Post by Pillman's Pencil on Jul 24, 2014 11:59:00 GMT -5
Heres the thing though if it was a TV special or something then people wouldn't care as much, but its a PPV and you're trying to attract people to subscribe to the network, if you have a bad show like Battleground for example (bar the first match), then you're going to get called up on it and that is something Triple H and the rest of WWE have to put right instead of blaming smart mark fans or fans in general, which is why Raw on Monday was so much better than Battleground. Its not just fans who found Battleground a poor show, former/current wrestlers didn't think much of it either. Ambrose/Rollins match being thrown out didn't help matters either. It just proved if anything that those fans rightfully criticising Battleground got to HHH.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 12:00:23 GMT -5
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jul 24, 2014 12:06:46 GMT -5
I mean let's be honest, there were plenty of people here who acted like Battleground was the end of the world and that WWE should go out of business because of it, when it wasn't THAT bad. It wasn't the best pay-per-view, but it certainly wasn't say Victory Road 2011 bad. It boiled down to "I wanted X, I didn't get it, so f*** WWE" just like the Royal Rumble. I'm not defending what WWE did with the match being scrapped, but there's also a certain level where it's like "Now you're just trying to find reasons to be pissed off and complain"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 12:21:28 GMT -5
I'm assuming he means comment negatively. Which, yeah, so .... make a better show maybe? I mean, you're not going to make all the people happy all the time, but if the overwhelming deluge of negative comments about your show online bothers you then maybe, you know, switch it up a bit?
Its like Castor Troy said when he was impersonating Sean Archer - "When all else fails: fresh tactics."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 12:28:58 GMT -5
I'm assuming he means comment negatively. Which, yeah, so .... make a better show maybe? I mean, you're not going to make all the people happy all the time, but if the overwhelming deluge of negative comments about your show online bothers you then maybe, you know, switch it up a bit? Its like Castor Troy said when he was impersonating Sean Archer - "When all else fails: fresh tactics." Yeah I mean, the whole thing is about trying to get casual fans or something, right? Are there many casual fans who are flipping through the channels, see Raw and say "Oh shit, Dean Ambrose is the champion and not Roman Reigns, f*** this, I'm out?" Not that we're going to stop watching if the opposite is true, but we're going to complain a lot. Whereas Ambrose as champion would be almost nothing but positive word of mouth, which would slightly encourage other people to sample the product. Casual fans seldom buy PPVs and aren't going to pay for the Network, either. Hardcore fans are needed for that, too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 12:41:05 GMT -5
I wonder if any industry hates it's fans like wrestling does. Every form of entertainment has it's vocal OTT fans but they don't automatically lump all of them together with the reasonable ones who don't like what they are seeing and have a right as consumers to say as such. Guess the WWE wants their fans to give their money for the network and like whatever they serve up whether it's good or not
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 24, 2014 12:51:49 GMT -5
I mean let's be honest, there were plenty of people here who acted like Battleground was the end of the world and that WWE should go out of business because of it, when it wasn't THAT bad. It wasn't the best pay-per-view, but it certainly wasn't say Victory Road 2011 bad. It boiled down to "I wanted X, I didn't get it, so f*** WWE" just like the Royal Rumble. I'm not defending what WWE did with the match being scrapped, but there's also a certain level where it's like "Now you're just trying to find reasons to be pissed off and complain" Or... as paying customers, they want to be catered to or have expectations met. Which, in a consumer-based climate, is their right, since they're the ones actually lining WWE's pockets. The days of completely writing off the Internet is over now. WWE's immediate future hinges on the bulk of those same people purchasing their internet-based medium. Because it certainly isn't the casual TV viewing audience for RAW & SD that is. WWE's already learned the hard way that over 3 million of those people are insignificant freeloaders.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 12:52:19 GMT -5
I wonder if any industry hates it's fans like wrestling does. Every form of entertainment has it's vocal OTT fans but they don't automatically lump all of them together with the reasonable ones who don't like what they are seeing and have a right as consumers to say as such. Guess the WWE wants their fans to give their money for the network and like whatever they serve up whether it's good or not Film studios don't like their audiences. It's one of the reasons why many of them are financially insolvent and TV companies are doing gangbusters.
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Pushed to the Moon
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Jul 24, 2014 12:56:06 GMT -5
I wonder if any industry hates it's fans like wrestling does. Every form of entertainment has it's vocal OTT fans but they don't automatically lump all of them together with the reasonable ones who don't like what they are seeing and have a right as consumers to say as such. Guess the WWE wants their fans to give their money for the network and like whatever they serve up whether it's good or not This is what makes wrestling such a weird business, especially when it comes to negative feedback. It's not like it's some personal project like a musician who can say "oh well I made this album for me so I don't care what you think" or a TV show when they've already filmed 20 episodes and can't make any changes if people hate it. They literally write parts the Raw on the night of broadcast and get instant responses as to what people like or dislike but for some reason they refuse to admit they're wrong about anything unless it becomes absolutely ridiculous like the Bryan situation. I mean maybe Vince is trying to get across some sort of grand artistic vision where he sees champs losing non title matches every week and people getting rolled up after entrance music distraction as truly groundbreaking entertainment I dunno.
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Perd
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Post by Perd on Jul 24, 2014 12:59:50 GMT -5
It's weird with Triple H. With what we know about him (or at least what we think we know), it's hard not to try and read more into what he's saying, even when he is seemingly just trolling. A rant like that, is more loaded, coming from him, than it would be by anyone not named McMahon.
And I do think WWE has some resentment, that a part of the fan base they probably (or rightly) presume is a vocal minority, has a more public platform than ever before. But surely they're not so obtuse, as to not understand that, that vocal minority, is far and away, the most likely group to shell out money for the all-important network.
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Post by madness50 on Jul 24, 2014 13:01:19 GMT -5
Oh that Cerebal Assassin, he is cool and clever lol. Maybe a lot of people who stop bitching if WWE actually gave the fans advertised matches and followed through with sensible storylines. A lot of their booking reminds me of late 1998 WCW, just a bunch of run-ins and DQ's every week.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 24, 2014 13:08:48 GMT -5
The idea that the fans are wrong when something like this happens is just bizarre.
By definition, they can't be.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 13:15:12 GMT -5
Also, I'm not saying WWE should follow the whim of every fan online, but that it would be helpful to use general reactions as a barometer of what works/what doesn't. By that I mean if everyone online is clamouring for Cesaro to be world champ - don't immediately make him world champ, but consider the possibility of putting new people in the main event scene in a real way. So not following fans' whims as they happen, but more NOT being afraid to change their style if something isn't working.
Second - and just kind of off-topic, the creators/writers of the X-Files would actually visit a message board created by X-Files fans (but not associated with Fox) to get story ideas and general impressions of how characters/arcs were doing amongst their viewers. The fact that Deep Throat's character was expanded and the Lone Gunmen were brougth back resulted from writers reading what fans liked on the message boards. They also lifted lines DIRECTLY from those same message boards and put them in eps of the X-Files. Now, this was well before the internet was so pervasive, but I thougth it interesting nonetheless.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 24, 2014 14:00:40 GMT -5
By that logic, he should hate fans praising the product online too
If you are too clueless to criticise, you'd be too clueless to praise
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 14:13:09 GMT -5
Guess what Paul? You don't have to be in THIS BUSINESS to be able to criticize it.
I'm scared that this is the guy who is currently running things now.
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Post by lockedontarget on Jul 24, 2014 14:29:36 GMT -5
The whole "it's a filler PPV" argument makes zero sense.
The vast majority of b-level ppvs, deliver on their big, important matches. Why are people acting like booking a highly desired match and then not having it is par for the course? It's not. It happens rarely and when it does, people get mad, because they should.
Every PPV since Wrestlemania has been a B-show yet this is the only one that pulled one of it's promised main attractions.
Also, B-level ppvs are often better than the main ones. This is one of the first years in a long time where WM will be a PPV of the year candidate.
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