mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jul 25, 2014 21:44:11 GMT -5
I AM trying to make myself clear. Hell, that's what I was talking about when I wrote the post you're replying too. A lot of the time when people are criticizing my ideas they aren't even criticizing exactly what I meant. I mean I have NO IDEA why Sean felt the need to remind me that I said Brock should always lose. As far as I know I never recanted or denied it. I don't think I'm the lone intellectual voice in the wilderness(as Kevin Hamilton put it below) I feel like this is happening to me : the last panel specifically Are you the dog? I'd be Dilbert in this instance
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 21:46:08 GMT -5
That said, if the crowd wants to have the pavlovian response of chanting "you tapped out!" it's because WWE, through ignorance and not understanding real fight psychology, created or at least perpetuated the belief that it is somehow shameful to tap out or submit. They then encouraged such chants for years. WWE was the egg, and the 'you tapped out' chicken sprung from that. It's their fault. It always bugs me when say Kofi or Ryder gets caught in the cross armbreaker and Michael Cole's all "well, they had no choice" then Sheamus or Cena get locked in it for 20 minutes and it's all "look at the toughness of this man", never "just tap before you suffer serious injury, you fool!" I'd like to see WWE and all wrestling switch their booking of submissions from seeing how long someone can suffer through, to how well the wrestler can avoid getting locked in the hold at all. Make a heel's submission finisher actually a finisher. If it's locked in, you tap. If you happen to get to the ropes, it's because you're already by them and you haven't just dragged your opponent across the damn ring. I think it was Kevin Nash who said something to the effect of the WWE is filled with people who have never been in a fight and never had sex writing about violence and sex. It comes across that way pretty clearly on TV.
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Post by SCCB Was Told To Do Steroids on Jul 25, 2014 23:10:05 GMT -5
Before my response to the OP, I'm going to throw this out there: In real MMA fights, fighters are smart enough to know when their arms and legs are about to snap. They train that way. The idea of prolonging the pain until the last possible second is purely dramatic. If anything, because of the prevalence and existence of wrestling before MMA, more people knew about "saying uncle" way before "tapping out".
As far as HHH, he and the writers were obviously looking for his big send-off, the hero fading into the west. It's actually kind of sad, like the kid who wants to be popular manufacturing his own myth all the while the very kids he's trying to impress laugh at him. (This actually happened to one of my best friends in high school, leaving me behind in the process.)
HHH will never allow himself to be at peace with the opinions that really matter as far as insiders go, like Jim Cornette and Bill Apter. Counseling might be a good option for him as far as his personal well being goes. Until then, his wounded ego will continue to manifest itself in perpetuity.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 25, 2014 23:24:57 GMT -5
HHH can never play the role of the underdog. An underdog corporate suit just doesn't compute.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 25, 2014 23:43:03 GMT -5
To parrot something said earlier, Trips' problem as a babyface is that he comes out of the Vince McMahon post-90s School of Face-dom. In this school, a babyface is someone Vince would perceive as an "alpha male" (no, not Monty Brown, sadly), because he takes no guff, never gets outwitted, is always stronger than his opposition, comes up with jokes and comebacks to anything his enemy says to him, goes on roaring rampages of revenge over even the smallest slight, and always gets the last laugh in the end, despite that he has, in fact, been the only one laughing all along.
A Vince McMahon babyface is an asshole.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 25, 2014 23:49:54 GMT -5
To parrot something said earlier, Trips' problem as a babyface is that he comes out of the Vince McMahon post-90s School of Face-dom. In this school, a babyface is someone Vince would perceive as an "alpha male" (no, not Monty Brown, sadly), because he takes no guff, never gets outwitted, is always stronger than his opposition, comes up with jokes and comebacks to anything his enemy says to him, goes on roaring rampages of revenge over even the smallest slight, and always gets the last laugh in the end, despite that he has, in fact, been the only one laughing all along. A Vince McMahon babyface is an asshole. It's as if William Zabka would've been the hero in all those Eighties movies.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 25, 2014 23:52:42 GMT -5
To parrot something said earlier, Trips' problem as a babyface is that he comes out of the Vince McMahon post-90s School of Face-dom. In this school, a babyface is someone Vince would perceive as an "alpha male" (no, not Monty Brown, sadly), because he takes no guff, never gets outwitted, is always stronger than his opposition, comes up with jokes and comebacks to anything his enemy says to him, goes on roaring rampages of revenge over even the smallest slight, and always gets the last laugh in the end, despite that he has, in fact, been the only one laughing all along. A Vince McMahon babyface is an asshole. It's as if William Zabka would've been the hero in all those Eighties movies. NEXT WORLD CHAMP! NEXT WORLD CHAMP! NEXT WORLD CHAMP!
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 25, 2014 23:53:01 GMT -5
Along with showing the problems with Vince McMahon babyfaces, HHH also shows why the evil authority figure role needs to go. It makes no sense in a kayfabe context. He could simply award the title at will to his favoured guy. No reason to even bother with matches. Authority figures in wrestling need to be like authority figures in real sport. Bland and neutral and rarely seen.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 25, 2014 23:55:30 GMT -5
It's as if William Zabka would've been the hero in all those Eighties movies. NEXT WORLD CHAMP! NEXT WORLD CHAMP! NEXT WORLD CHAMP!
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Jonathan Michaels
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Archduke of Levity
Here since TNA was still kinda okay
Posts: 18,024
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Jul 26, 2014 1:25:04 GMT -5
I understand from a business sense why Lesnar has to be so strong. But he's such an asshat IRL that I don't ever want to see him succeed. That's why Summerslam is gonna be a tough watch for me, because they can't both lose. Just out of curiosity why is Brock an asshat in your opinion? All the evidence. The way he left, the way he deliberately dissed one of UFC's top sponsors after a fight, the many people who have said he's kind of a Richard. Seriously, have you heard ONE story about him being a swell guy?
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 26, 2014 1:33:24 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity why is Brock an asshat in your opinion? All the evidence. The way he left, the way he deliberately dissed one of UFC's top sponsors after a fight, the many people who have said he's kind of a Richard. Seriously, have you heard ONE story about him being a swell guy? The way he left? You mean putting Eddie over, and fulfilling all his contractual obligations? He did everything WWE asked of him, asked for his release because the road wasn't for him, they gave it him, and he did some jobs on the way out. As for the Bud Light thing? Who gives shit? He wasn't being financially compensated by them. He got in trouble for it, and gave his mandatory fake apology, so who cares? He's a fighter, not a pitchman. f*** Bud Light. They ain't paying me nuthin' either. And who cares if he's a swell guy? Dude's a mercenary. You pay him, he does what he's asked, he loses when he's told, there's no politics. I'd rather have ten Lesnar's, then one Kevin Nash.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,576
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Post by Dub H on Jul 26, 2014 1:36:02 GMT -5
All the evidence. The way he left, the way he deliberately dissed one of UFC's top sponsors after a fight, the many people who have said he's kind of a Richard. Seriously, have you heard ONE story about him being a swell guy? The way he left? You mean putting Eddie over, and fulfilling all his contractual obligations? He did everything WWE asked of him, asked for his release because the road wasn't for him, they gave it him, and he did some jobs on the way out. As for the Bud Light thing? Who gives shit? He wasn't being financially compensated by them. He got in trouble for it, and gave his mandatory fake apology, so who cares? He's a fighter, not a pitchman. f*** Bud Light. They ain't paying me nuthin' either. And who cares if he's a swell guy? Dude's a mercenary. You pay him, he does what he's asked, he loses when he's told, there's no politics. I'd rather have ten Lesnar's, then one Kevin Nash. that is a fair point about Lesnar,people say he has no love for the "business. But even if that the case,the guy gets paid and does what is asked,no politics as you said,which is more than a lot of people that love the business can say
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 26, 2014 1:40:44 GMT -5
The way he left? You mean putting Eddie over, and fulfilling all his contractual obligations? He did everything WWE asked of him, asked for his release because the road wasn't for him, they gave it him, and he did some jobs on the way out. As for the Bud Light thing? Who gives shit? He wasn't being financially compensated by them. He got in trouble for it, and gave his mandatory fake apology, so who cares? He's a fighter, not a pitchman. f*** Bud Light. They ain't paying me nuthin' either. And who cares if he's a swell guy? Dude's a mercenary. You pay him, he does what he's asked, he loses when he's told, there's no politics. I'd rather have ten Lesnar's, then one Kevin Nash. that is a fair point about Lesnar,people say he has no love for the "business. But even if that the case,the guy gets paid and does what is asked,no politics as you said,which is more than a lot of people that love the business can say I kind of wish Lesnar did love the business. His leaving pretty much ruined it for everyone who came after him. Quite a few guys ended up not living up to their potential because of WWE's fear that someone else will leave the way that he did. I wish that Lesnar at least politicked enough to say "I don't want to wrestle Cena, Triple H, or Taker. I wanna work with <insert this guy> instead."
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Jonathan Michaels
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Archduke of Levity
Here since TNA was still kinda okay
Posts: 18,024
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Jul 26, 2014 1:49:50 GMT -5
that is a fair point about Lesnar,people say he has no love for the "business. But even if that the case,the guy gets paid and does what is asked,no politics as you said,which is more than a lot of people that love the business can say I kind of wish Lesnar did love the business. His leaving pretty much ruined it for everyone who came after him. Quite a few guys ended up not living up to their potential because of WWE's fear that someone else will leave the way that he did. I wish that Lesnar at least politicked enough to say "I don't want to wrestle Cena, Triple H, or Taker. I wanna work with <insert this guy> instead." Bingo.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 1:51:20 GMT -5
that is a fair point about Lesnar,people say he has no love for the "business. But even if that the case,the guy gets paid and does what is asked,no politics as you said,which is more than a lot of people that love the business can say I kind of wish Lesnar did love the business. His leaving pretty much ruined it for everyone who came after him. Quite a few guys ended up not living up to their potential because of WWE's fear that someone else will leave the way that he did. I wish that Lesnar at least politicked enough to say "I don't want to wrestle Cena, Triple H, or Taker. I wanna work with <insert this guy> instead." It's unfair to blame Lesnar for the company's inability to please their biggest star due to their unforgiving work schedule really. The WWE are the problem in that regard. Brock appreciated the business, but he appreciates the wrestlers for being athletes/tough as all hell (he's mentioned that in many UFC interviews), and appreciates it for being a way to make money. He wasn't a mark for the business, but he appreciated everyone involved in it. I do wish he would reach out to suggest things, but I suppose him being anti-backstage-politics means he just doesn't see the point, he's selfish in economic terms (which every wrestler should be given the lack of a union) and due to that he'll do absolutely anything written for him. He's a lot like John Cena in that regard, it's rare that you'll hear anything about either guy refusing to do what they're asked, but unlike Cena he won't put himself through garbage/stress for the sake of a company, which is the right way to be in any profession.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 2:02:01 GMT -5
That said, if the crowd wants to have the pavlovian response of chanting "you tapped out!" it's because WWE, through ignorance and not understanding real fight psychology, created or at least perpetuated the belief that it is somehow shameful to tap out or submit. They then encouraged such chants for years. WWE was the egg, and the 'you tapped out' chicken sprung from that. It's their fault. It always bugs me when say Kofi or Ryder gets caught in the cross armbreaker and Michael Cole's all "well, they had no choice" then Sheamus or Cena get locked in it for 20 minutes and it's all "look at the toughness of this man", never "just tap before you suffer serious injury, you fool!" I'd like to see WWE and all wrestling switch their booking of submissions from seeing how long someone can suffer through, to how well the wrestler can avoid getting locked in the hold at all. Make a heel's submission finisher actually a finisher. If it's locked in, you tap. If you happen to get to the ropes, it's because you're already by them and you haven't just dragged your opponent across the damn ring. Speaking of, I love how any time a heel does that it's despicable but Cena pulls people away from the ropes and to the center of the ring in every single big match he has.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jul 26, 2014 5:16:03 GMT -5
It always bugs me when say Kofi or Ryder gets caught in the cross armbreaker and Michael Cole's all "well, they had no choice" then Sheamus or Cena get locked in it for 20 minutes and it's all "look at the toughness of this man", never "just tap before you suffer serious injury, you fool!" I'd like to see WWE and all wrestling switch their booking of submissions from seeing how long someone can suffer through, to how well the wrestler can avoid getting locked in the hold at all. Make a heel's submission finisher actually a finisher. If it's locked in, you tap. If you happen to get to the ropes, it's because you're already by them and you haven't just dragged your opponent across the damn ring. Speaking of, I love how any time a heel does that it's despicable but Cena pulls people away from the ropes and to the center of the ring in every single big match he has. I have never thought of their announcing as suggesting that really.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jul 26, 2014 5:21:57 GMT -5
All the evidence. The way he left, the way he deliberately dissed one of UFC's top sponsors after a fight, the many people who have said he's kind of a Richard. Seriously, have you heard ONE story about him being a swell guy? The way he left? You mean putting Eddie over, and fulfilling all his contractual obligations? He did everything WWE asked of him, asked for his release because the road wasn't for him, they gave it him, and he did some jobs on the way out. As for the Bud Light thing? Who gives shit? He wasn't being financially compensated by them. He got in trouble for it, and gave his mandatory fake apology, so who cares? He's a fighter, not a pitchman. f*** Bud Light. They ain't paying me nuthin' either. And who cares if he's a swell guy? Dude's a mercenary. You pay him, he does what he's asked, he loses when he's told, there's no politics. I'd rather have ten Lesnar's, then one Kevin Nash. Everything I'd heard said his asking for his release was close enough to Mania season that Goldberg going over him was a change in plans. And considering how quickly Eddie lost the belt when JBL challenged him I can see the original plan being for Brock to get the belt back real quick. And anyway, most people don't consider mercenaries good people.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 26, 2014 10:43:05 GMT -5
The way he left? You mean putting Eddie over, and fulfilling all his contractual obligations? He did everything WWE asked of him, asked for his release because the road wasn't for him, they gave it him, and he did some jobs on the way out. As for the Bud Light thing? Who gives shit? He wasn't being financially compensated by them. He got in trouble for it, and gave his mandatory fake apology, so who cares? He's a fighter, not a pitchman. f*** Bud Light. They ain't paying me nuthin' either. And who cares if he's a swell guy? Dude's a mercenary. You pay him, he does what he's asked, he loses when he's told, there's no politics. I'd rather have ten Lesnar's, then one Kevin Nash. Everything I'd heard said his asking for his release was close enough to Mania season that Goldberg going over him was a change in plans. And considering how quickly Eddie lost the belt when JBL challenged him I can see the original plan being for Brock to get the belt back real quick. And anyway, most people don't consider mercenaries good people. It doesn't matter what the plans were. He asked for his release straight up, received it, and did whatever he was told until the day he left. There was never an instance in his entire tenure wherein he strong-armed WWE or politicked to hold anyone back. Hell, he even sold 'fear' for Bob Holly, which was about the most absurd thing ever. In a sea of guys with histories of just no showing or refusing ideas upon their departure, Brock did the right thing. He was a true independent contractor. He did his job. And then, when he did not want to anymore, he went through the proper channels to leave. If anything, WWE tried to f*** him with an absurd no-compete clause. One that his lawyer, easily turned over. As for the Eddie thing, Brock was not supposed to get it back. Court Bauer and Lagana and others have both said that Brock was pegged for a long feud with Undertaker after Mania, and that was as far as they got. Eddie was expected to be a long term champion -- but opted out in June when he told WWE that he couldn't handle the pressure. If anything, JBL was created simply as a mid-reign contingency, because both Kurt Angle and Big Show were hurt. It just so happened that his feud clicked, and Vince went with it, despite the fact that financially, JBL ended up being the company's lowest drawing long-term Champion in history. And as for the last point: I said who gives a shit if he's a nice guy. And it's true. Mercenaries aren't good people, sure, but they aren't supposed to be. They are simply hired to do a specific job, they do it to the best of their capability, and you pay them as such, because they do not complain or refuse orders. And that is Brock. And that is what a independent contractor truly is. He's a businessman. And for whatever reason, that seems to stick in the craw of some people. Like having 'passion' in such a cut throat and corrupt business makes you better than someone who sees it for what it really is: a job. One that they take pride in doing when they do it, but one that doesn't rule their lives. If anything, the guys who 'love the business' have often times been a detriment to it and those within it in many ways. I'll take a guy who I know what I'm getting over that, nine times out of ten.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 10:58:43 GMT -5
All the evidence. The way he left, the way he deliberately dissed one of UFC's top sponsors after a fight, the many people who have said he's kind of a Richard. Seriously, have you heard ONE story about him being a swell guy? The way he left? You mean putting Eddie over, and fulfilling all his contractual obligations? He did everything WWE asked of him, asked for his release because the road wasn't for him, they gave it him, and he did some jobs on the way out. As for the Bud Light thing? Who gives shit? He wasn't being financially compensated by them. He got in trouble for it, and gave his mandatory fake apology, so who cares? He's a fighter, not a pitchman. f*** Bud Light. They ain't paying me nuthin' either. And who cares if he's a swell guy? Dude's a mercenary. You pay him, he does what he's asked, he loses when he's told, there's no politics. I'd rather have ten Lesnar's, then one Kevin Nash. That last part is the most important one. Lesnar is a contractor to the letter: he does what he is told, and if he thinks he's being paid well enough, will do whatever he is asked. He's not there to be anyone's friend, or carry on the legacy of the company, or anything else. He wants to make money and he will give you what you paid for, and since he likes being paid big piles of money, will only do good work. That's about it, really. It's not like lamenting someone who's apparently a rod when they're likely to be the top wrestler in the company for the forseeable future. Even if Lesnar is a dick behind the scenes (which I don't know), so what? He keeps his mouth shut and doesn't make a big stink about anything. If only more wrestlers were like that.
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