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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 26, 2014 11:03:22 GMT -5
"Passion for THIS BUSINESS" has to be one of the most overrated, make believe virtues ever.
It's nice to have someone who is a fan, but if someone treats it like a job only, I have no issue with it if they're great at what they do. Frankly, more of em should view it that way.
You know where passion for the business can lead? Look at someone like Flair right now--one of the greatest ever, also a sad cautionary tale.
Or take it another way--Marlon Brando is one of the greatest actors of all time; looked at acting as a job, if not an outright nuisance. That doesn't make Vito Corelone any less iconic.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 11:09:13 GMT -5
"Passion for THIS BUSINESS" has to be one of the most overrated, make believe virtues ever. It's nice to have someone who is a fan, but if someone treats it like a job only, I have no issue with it if they're great at what they do. Frankly, more of em should view it that way. You know where passion for the business can lead? Look at someone like Flair right now--one of the greatest ever, also a sad cautionary tale. Or take it another way--Marlon Brando is one of the greatest actors of all time; looked at acting as a job, if not an outright nuisance. That doesn't make Vito Corelone any less iconic. It also leads to people never challenging WWE leadership on anything. They're too concerned about losing their jobs, and therefore refuse to ever band together to take a stand against the company. Even if no main eventers joined, the company would capitulate to their demands on payment and employment and everything else in a heartbeat.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jul 26, 2014 11:12:14 GMT -5
"Passion for THIS BUSINESS" has to be one of the most overrated, make believe virtues ever. It's nice to have someone who is a fan, but if someone treats it like a job only, I have no issue with it if they're great at what they do. Frankly, more of em should view it that way. You know where passion for the business can lead? Look at someone like Flair right now--one of the greatest ever, also a sad cautionary tale. Or take it another way--Marlon Brando is one of the greatest actors of all time; looked at acting as a job, if not an outright nuisance. That doesn't make Vito Corelone any less iconic. Kevin Nash made a very good point about how everyone wants to talk about "DIS BUSINESS" but the second he started he treating it like a business, he became the bad guy in the locker room. It's so damn silly.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 26, 2014 11:14:40 GMT -5
"Passion for THIS BUSINESS" has to be one of the most overrated, make believe virtues ever. It's nice to have someone who is a fan, but if someone treats it like a job only, I have no issue with it if they're great at what they do. Frankly, more of em should view it that way. You know where passion for the business can lead? Look at someone like Flair right now--one of the greatest ever, also a sad cautionary tale. Or take it another way--Marlon Brando is one of the greatest actors of all time; looked at acting as a job, if not an outright nuisance. That doesn't make Vito Corelone any less iconic. Kevin Nash made a very good point about how everyone wants to talk about "DIS BUSINESS" but the second he started he treating it like a business, he became the bad guy in the locker room. It's so damn silly. Yep. Given how historically scummy promoters have been as well, it's just such an odd thing to castigate people for doing.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jul 26, 2014 11:34:47 GMT -5
Everything I'd heard said his asking for his release was close enough to Mania season that Goldberg going over him was a change in plans. And considering how quickly Eddie lost the belt when JBL challenged him I can see the original plan being for Brock to get the belt back real quick. And anyway, most people don't consider mercenaries good people. It doesn't matter what the plans were. He asked for his release straight up, received it, and did whatever he was told until the day he left. There was never an instance in his entire tenure wherein he strong-armed WWE or politicked to hold anyone back. Hell, he even sold 'fear' for Bob Holly, which was about the most absurd thing ever. In a sea of guys with histories of just no showing or refusing ideas upon their departure, Brock did the right thing. He was a true independent contractor. He did his job. And then, when he did not want to anymore, he went through the proper channels to leave. If anything, WWE tried to f*** him with an absurd no-compete clause. One that his lawyer, easily turned over. As for the Eddie thing, Brock was not supposed to get it back. Court Bauer and Lagana and others have both said that Brock was pegged for a long feud with Undertaker after Mania, and that was as far as they got. Eddie was expected to be a long term champion -- but opted out in June when he told WWE that he couldn't handle the pressure. If anything, JBL was created simply as a mid-reign contingency, because both Kurt Angle and Big Show were hurt. It just so happened that his feud clicked, and Vince went with it, despite the fact that financially, JBL ended up being the company's lowest drawing long-term Champion in history. And as for the last point: I said who gives a shit if he's a nice guy. And it's true. Mercenaries aren't good people, sure, but they aren't supposed to be. They are simply hired to do a specific job, they do it to the best of their capability, and you pay them as such, because they do not complain or refuse orders. And that is Brock. And that is what a independent contractor truly is. He's a businessman. And for whatever reason, that seems to stick in the craw of some people. Like having 'passion' in such a cut throat and corrupt business makes you better than someone who sees it for what it really is: a job. One that they take pride in doing when they do it, but one that doesn't rule their lives. If anything, the guys who 'love the business' have often times been a detriment to it and those within it in many ways. I'll take a guy who I know what I'm getting over that, nine times out of ten. well for one, mercenaries tend to feel no obligation to anyone but the people who sign their checks. Fans like to have some sign they are appreciated. Goldberg was another guy who was a bit mercenary. And he laid down for Kevin Nash, never seemed to politic real hard at the time to keep his momentum going; sure it may have upset him enough he'd talk about it later but he didn't fight it; and put his fist through a car window for WCW. So not having passion for the job and just being a business man isn't necessarily great either.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Jul 26, 2014 11:38:22 GMT -5
The way he left? You mean putting Eddie over, and fulfilling all his contractual obligations? He did everything WWE asked of him, asked for his release because the road wasn't for him, they gave it him, and he did some jobs on the way out. As for the Bud Light thing? Who gives shit? He wasn't being financially compensated by them. He got in trouble for it, and gave his mandatory fake apology, so who cares? He's a fighter, not a pitchman. f*** Bud Light. They ain't paying me nuthin' either. And who cares if he's a swell guy? Dude's a mercenary. You pay him, he does what he's asked, he loses when he's told, there's no politics. I'd rather have ten Lesnar's, then one Kevin Nash. That last part is the most important one. Lesnar is a contractor to the letter: he does what he is told, and if he thinks he's being paid well enough, will do whatever he is asked. He's not there to be anyone's friend, or carry on the legacy of the company, or anything else. He wants to make money and he will give you what you paid for, and since he likes being paid big piles of money, will only do good work. That's about it, really. It's not like lamenting someone who's apparently a rod when they're likely to be the top wrestler in the company for the forseeable future. Even if Lesnar is a dick behind the scenes (which I don't know), so what? He keeps his mouth shut and doesn't make a big stink about anything. If only more wrestlers were like that. if more wrestlers were like that then the few that still politiced would get everything they wanted. The cure to some people's selfishness is not other's indifference
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Jul 26, 2014 11:38:48 GMT -5
Kevin Nash made a very good point about how everyone wants to talk about "DIS BUSINESS" but the second he started he treating it like a business, he became the bad guy in the locker room. It's so damn silly. Yep. Given how historically scummy promoters have been as well, it's just such an odd thing to castigate people for doing. This is why I've got no issue with Brock, or Goldberg, Warrior, Nash, Rock, Punk or even Kaityln, who left and treated it as a job. They don't owe anybody anything, you do your job, you get your money, and when you wanna go do something else, just leave. Just because you want enjoy your family and leave before your body is destoryed like Edge, Rey, Benoit, etc., doesn't make you "less" of a wrestler than Triple H or John Cena or something.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jul 26, 2014 11:43:21 GMT -5
"Passion for THIS BUSINESS" has to be one of the most overrated, make believe virtues ever. It's nice to have someone who is a fan, but if someone treats it like a job only, I have no issue with it if they're great at what they do. Frankly, more of em should view it that way. You know where passion for the business can lead? Look at someone like Flair right now--one of the greatest ever, also a sad cautionary tale. Or take it another way--Marlon Brando is one of the greatest actors of all time; looked at acting as a job, if not an outright nuisance. That doesn't make Vito Corelone any less iconic. Kevin Nash made a very good point about how everyone wants to talk about "DIS BUSINESS" but the second he started he treating it like a business, he became the bad guy in the locker room. It's so damn silly. that's because they're talking about the nature of the work they do, not comparing it to a job. Most words do have multiple meanings.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 11:45:06 GMT -5
There's a huge difference between someone having "passion for the business" and being a mark for the business. To suggest that Brock doesn't have passion for the business is absurd, otherwise he'd be going out there completely half-assing everything and just cashing his huge checks, when in fact he's been going out and having some of the better matches of his career, with the Punk match being one of the best matches of last year.
If Brock wanted to he could be the biggest asshole in wrestling history, because let's face it no one in the WWE is beating him in an actual fight, but he isn't he shows up and does his job for the money that he thinks that he's worth and the WWE agreed upon. I'm not sure if the WWE outright needs Brock Lesnar, but Brock Lesnar damn sure doesn't need the WWE at this point. He's having some fun and getting paid, it's part of the same reason that some people hated Bruiser Brody back in the day, because he put his financial well being first instead of worrying about titles and fake accolades. The people that grew up wanting nothing more than to be a WWE superstar, while admirable that they've reached their dream, are usually the ones that the business breaks.
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
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Post by Jiren on Jul 26, 2014 11:45:37 GMT -5
Didn't Brock leave to pursue NFL?, He left to follow a dream of his.
nothing wrong with that.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Jul 26, 2014 11:46:00 GMT -5
Yep. Given how historically scummy promoters have been as well, it's just such an odd thing to castigate people for doing. This is why I've got no issue with Brock, or Goldberg, Warrior, Nash, Rock, Punk or even Kaityln, who left and treated it as a job. They don't owe anybody anything, you do your job, you get your money, and when you wanna go do something else, just leave. Just because you want enjoy your family and leave before your body is destoryed like Edge, Rey, Benoit, etc., doesn't make you "less" of a wrestler than Triple H or John Cena or something. nope, it just means it's risky to rely on you as the foundation of the company and that has to have booking influence.
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Jul 26, 2014 11:53:57 GMT -5
In a form on entertainment that has seen an septuagenariann spawn a dismembered hand on prime-time television, witnessing HHH going toe-to-toe with Lesnar was something for which I struggled to suspend disbelief.
It's not even that rotten and insecure 'yo, Lesnar is legit, dudez' bullshit, but more the mesh of styles, they did not favour the other at all.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Jul 26, 2014 11:56:11 GMT -5
In a form on entertainment that has seen an septuagenariann spawn a dismembered on prime-time television, witnessing HHH going toe-to-toe with Lesnar was something for which I struggled to suspend disbelief. Triple H has gone toe to toe with Undertaker, Undertaker did it with Brock. Or did you have to suspend it in the Taker matches too?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 11:58:05 GMT -5
This is why I've got no issue with Brock, or Goldberg, Warrior, Nash, Rock, Punk or even Kaityln, who left and treated it as a job. They don't owe anybody anything, you do your job, you get your money, and when you wanna go do something else, just leave. Just because you want enjoy your family and leave before your body is destoryed like Edge, Rey, Benoit, etc., doesn't make you "less" of a wrestler than Triple H or John Cena or something. nope, it just means it's risky to rely on you as the foundation of the company and that has to have booking influence. It's almost like Brock mentioned not wanting to leave if there were less work dates for him, and if travel was easier/less painful on his body way before handing in his notice. Or Rock not wanting to leave but Vince freezing him out of contract talks as Rock was getting bigger than his company. Or Punk wanting better resolve to some stories and some time off to heal up. A lot of those people said what would help, some get it, some don't, but to claim that these people's decisions are more to blame than the company who aren't well renowned for looking after their guys beyond surgery payments is downright sad. I know the reply will be, 'but the company needs a permanent booking plan', but they CAN have that by making their business kinder to their independent contractors. That hasn't happened. Some people don't have incredible demands either, remember Lashley leaving over a few things including treatment of his partner? That hasn't happened. The people who stay and work are often worked to the bone and taken advantage of (Rey Mysterio) and/or are called marks for the business as the promoters KNOW they'll go beyond what they're asked to do (AJ at the kindest end, Howard Finkel at the most horrendous). It's carny bullshit, it's awful, it's the type of thing any other business, including entertainment businesses, get raked over coals for if it comes to light. Credit to the WWE's lawyers for that not being the case in a publicly traded company I suppose.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jul 26, 2014 12:00:47 GMT -5
Kevin Nash made a very good point about how everyone wants to talk about "DIS BUSINESS" but the second he started he treating it like a business, he became the bad guy in the locker room. It's so damn silly. that's because they're talking about the nature of the work they do, not comparing it to a job. Most words do have multiple meanings. LMAO, how are you so sure of what every wrestler means when they use that word? They are using the word business which is often a place where people go in with the intent of making a lot of money above everything else. That definition also works here.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
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I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 26, 2014 12:06:43 GMT -5
It doesn't matter what the plans were. He asked for his release straight up, received it, and did whatever he was told until the day he left. There was never an instance in his entire tenure wherein he strong-armed WWE or politicked to hold anyone back. Hell, he even sold 'fear' for Bob Holly, which was about the most absurd thing ever. In a sea of guys with histories of just no showing or refusing ideas upon their departure, Brock did the right thing. He was a true independent contractor. He did his job. And then, when he did not want to anymore, he went through the proper channels to leave. If anything, WWE tried to f*** him with an absurd no-compete clause. One that his lawyer, easily turned over. As for the Eddie thing, Brock was not supposed to get it back. Court Bauer and Lagana and others have both said that Brock was pegged for a long feud with Undertaker after Mania, and that was as far as they got. Eddie was expected to be a long term champion -- but opted out in June when he told WWE that he couldn't handle the pressure. If anything, JBL was created simply as a mid-reign contingency, because both Kurt Angle and Big Show were hurt. It just so happened that his feud clicked, and Vince went with it, despite the fact that financially, JBL ended up being the company's lowest drawing long-term Champion in history. And as for the last point: I said who gives a shit if he's a nice guy. And it's true. Mercenaries aren't good people, sure, but they aren't supposed to be. They are simply hired to do a specific job, they do it to the best of their capability, and you pay them as such, because they do not complain or refuse orders. And that is Brock. And that is what a independent contractor truly is. He's a businessman. And for whatever reason, that seems to stick in the craw of some people. Like having 'passion' in such a cut throat and corrupt business makes you better than someone who sees it for what it really is: a job. One that they take pride in doing when they do it, but one that doesn't rule their lives. If anything, the guys who 'love the business' have often times been a detriment to it and those within it in many ways. I'll take a guy who I know what I'm getting over that, nine times out of ten. well for one, mercenaries tend to feel no obligation to anyone but the people who sign their checks. Fans like to have some sign they are appreciated. Goldberg was another guy who was a bit mercenary. And he laid down for Kevin Nash, never seemed to politic real hard at the time to keep his momentum going; sure it may have upset him enough he'd talk about it later but he didn't fight it; and put his fist through a car window for WCW. So not having passion for the job and just being a business man isn't necessarily great either. You know what you are getting with a mercenary. To the "T". Others who claim to "love the business" are often shady and duplicitous, insecure and paranoid, and use means fair and foul to keep themselves in the spotlight at all costs, under the guise that they're doing it for "the business". (and we all know who these people are, for the mot part). Hell, it's those type of guys who helped put WCW into significant deficit. And appreciating the fans is nice, but not an obligation. A wrestler's obligation ends the moment he walks back through the curtain or gets into his rental car. As for Goldberg -- he put his fist through the window for himself. He dropped the steel bar out of his glove he was supposed to use by accident, and just improvised. It was a stupid error in judgment. And not indicative of anything other than that.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 26, 2014 12:07:15 GMT -5
I don't mind Lesnar not buying into "dis business" and all that bullshit "respect" crap. AJ had respect for the business. She was repaid with on-air, kayfabe-bending mockery. It seems the more you respect the business, the less respect you get. Lesnar is right to just show up, do his job, take his money, and give no further shits.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 12:12:08 GMT -5
That last part is the most important one. Lesnar is a contractor to the letter: he does what he is told, and if he thinks he's being paid well enough, will do whatever he is asked. He's not there to be anyone's friend, or carry on the legacy of the company, or anything else. He wants to make money and he will give you what you paid for, and since he likes being paid big piles of money, will only do good work. That's about it, really. It's not like lamenting someone who's apparently a rod when they're likely to be the top wrestler in the company for the forseeable future. Even if Lesnar is a dick behind the scenes (which I don't know), so what? He keeps his mouth shut and doesn't make a big stink about anything. If only more wrestlers were like that. if more wrestlers were like that then the few that still politiced would get everything they wanted. The cure to some people's selfishness is not other's indifference So what if they did? If everyone else is happy and they're making good money, it's a lot better than this system where everyone is too broke and dependent on WWE to ever want to stand up to them if they get wronged. That would actually give most wrestlers more bargaining power if they sought it, because being fired wouldn't throw them out on the streets right away.
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Jul 26, 2014 12:15:50 GMT -5
This is why I've got no issue with Brock, or Goldberg, Warrior, Nash, Rock, Punk or even Kaityln, who left and treated it as a job. They don't owe anybody anything, you do your job, you get your money, and when you wanna go do something else, just leave. Just because you want enjoy your family and leave before your body is destoryed like Edge, Rey, Benoit, etc., doesn't make you "less" of a wrestler than Triple H or John Cena or something. nope, it just means it's risky to rely on you as the foundation of the company and that has to have booking influence. As long as a person fufill their contractual obligations and gives prior notice before leaving, I could give two tosses about booking. If you don't know a guy's leaving before you pencil him in a 6 month feud with somebody, that's your own fault. Also, this is why you don't put all your eggs in one basket. WWE seems to be learning this with Regins, Rollins, and Ambrose (three different baskets) putting the foundation one guy is foolish and ususally ends up bitting them in the ass when that guy leaves.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 26, 2014 12:16:19 GMT -5
In a form on entertainment that has seen an septuagenariann spawn a dismembered on prime-time television, witnessing HHH going toe-to-toe with Lesnar was something for which I struggled to suspend disbelief. Triple H has gone toe to toe with Undertaker, Undertaker did it with Brock. Or did you have to suspend it in the Taker matches too? Anythig pre-UFC is wiped clean. He was brought back as a legitimate killer and former MMA Champion, who everyone knew would straight up kill 99% of those in the ring with in real life, and that was the hook WWE used. 2002-2004 Lesnar died at Mania XX. UFC Lesnar was the marketable and dominant attraction. His past was just to pad his resume. People bought into him for legitimacy. And as such, Cena wrestled the correct match with him, HHH did not, opting instead to have a phony, slow-paced, even steven NWA-style match with him. Brock transcends kayfabe. HHH going toe to toe with Brock on an even playing field, based on reality and universally proven credentials would be as silly as Hogan boxing Mike Tyson in the early 90's, and going 12 straight even rounds with him. Anyone who has any legit knowledge would have shaken their head at how clueless WWF was. It would require a whole other outside the box way to book it, because, Tyson was real. The challenge would have been in creating a plausible, yet entertaining match layout to suit reality. Same with Brock.
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